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P&O Fleet Movements

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A83

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That's an interesting point. How does Ulysses shelter Stena Adventurer?

Does this just happen during berthing in Holyhead? Or can she shelter Adventurer in open sea?

Steven

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Stena Carrier seems a big improvement on Neptune Agile. Good levels of car deck space. About 700 more lane meters than European Endeavour. I would find it interesting to see the efficiency levels - Endeavour vs Carrier.

If the bow doors on European Endeavour were brought back into operation, a refit arrangement with Stena could be an interesting option. Stena provide P&O with a vessel - eg Stena Carrier / Hibernia / Horizon for refits, and Stena use European Endeavour for month to cover Adventurer and Superfast X's dry-dockings.

In theory, following berthing trials, I could envisage some senario like that, as both companies could bring something to the table. Stena Horizon, I don't believe is a good refit option for Stena at Holyhead looking forward. On both occassions, she struggled. I recall in the past, European Endeavour's sister ship (prior to being delivered to LD Lines - I think she was named "T Rex") operated with relative ease from Holyhead. Naturally, her lower capacity than Adventurer was an issue, but from a turnaround perspective she was successful.

Next year, I would imagine European Seaway will be covering at Larne. Could she offer cover for Stena at Holyhead? Or operate in lieu of Superfast VII / VIII, the latter covering at Holyhead? Could Pride of Canterbury / Kent squeeze into Larne, and once duties have been completed, cover for Stena at Belfast, before going to perhaps H&W for a refit?
Im not sure how EUROPEAN SEAWAY would be a good cover vessel for Stena at Holyhead.  Her passenger capacity would be a major issue for instance, as it would also be between Belfast and Cairnryan.  You forget also that Stena Line and Stena Roro are separate companies.  P&O are chartering STENA CARRIER at the market rate from Stena RoRo - if Stena LINE were involved do you really think they would approve of giving one of their competitors MORE capacity?  The timing of the charter also appears to suit RoRo, as did the charter of STENA NORDICA (which by then had passed to Stena RoRo) to DFDS.

Stena do have a pooling arrangement with Irish Ferries, who are by far a bigger adversary than P&O.

It's just a theory, but if European Seaway can operate Larne - Cairnryan, I would think Belfast to Cairnryan would be straight forward enough.

StenaRoRo is indeed a separate company from Stena Line, but I imagine the latter could offer competitive charter rates, and likewise P&O could offer Stena Line a similar deal with European Seaway.

European Endeavour would be ideal for Holyhead, however her bow-doors would have to be brought back into operation for such an operation.

Brittany Ferries have a cosy arrangement with Stena Line. Stena Baltica is owned by Brittany Ferries, and likewise, Connemara is a Stena RoRo vessel.
Stena RoRo will take the offer for a vessel that suits Stena RoRo. If this wasn't the case we would more likely than not have HIGHLANDER and BLUE PUTTEES operating between Belfast and Cairnryan at present!  The whole point of having separate companies is that they will do what commercially makes sense for them.  As for there being a pooling arrangement with Irish Ferries, I think you are confusing a pooling arrangement with a space charter at the going commercial rate.  In a pooling arrangement both companies would be operating their vessels on a common schedule interchangeably with the same far structure and offers, rather than two different competing schedules!

With regard to Brittany Ferries, they needed tonnage and Stena RoRo happen to own some which was suitable.  This, again, is chartered at a rate acceptable to Stena RoRo and if a better offer came in then the vessel would go to that operator instead.  To be honest people read FAR to much into the perceived relationship between Brittany Ferries and the Stena Sphere.  STENA BALTICA/COTENTIN is a vessel that was surplus to requirements at Brittany Ferries and put on the open market.  Stena did look to purchase her but the purchase price was in excess of what they were prepared to pay.  If the companies were that blind to taking the best commercial offer then would Horizon not be sub-charted out and Etretat or Asterion/Connemara not be brought in (and upgraded) instead?

Stena and Irish Ferries work very closely at Holyhead.

If one ferries passengers are running late they can transfer onto the later vessel,

Stena Adventurer uses Ulysses for shelter during rough crossings.
Work closely?  They are competitors!  Like any business it makes sense to assist a competitor (and charge them) in a case were the assistance might need reciprocated.  There are cases when this happens with P&O and Stena on the North Channel as well.  As for providing shelter during rough crossings, this is not only untrue but also sounds outright dangerous!  How did the older and smaller vessels manage to cross without Ulysses?

It is true that in certain wind conditions that Ulysses provides shelter to Adventurer when BERTHING at Holyhead, and likewise when the wind conditions dictate SSF X provides shelter at Holyhead for Epsilon.  HOWEVER, this is a case of co-operational seamanship between skippers rather than a commercial arrangement between the companies themselves.  For safety's sake all skippers do and should work together.
Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 09:04:03 PM by Steven
Steve in Belfast (suburbia)

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IFPete

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The next rough day observe Stena Adventurer travelling behind Ulysses at a slight distance to the side but close enough for shelter.

RorieLen

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The next rough day observe Stena Adventurer travelling behind Ulysses at a slight distance to the side but close enough for shelter.

And what about when Stena Adventurer sails before Ulysses? Eg ex Holyhead at 1400 while Ulysses goes at 1410 or ex Dublin at 2040 when Ulysses sails at 2055?

Davy Jones

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Sheltering at sea wouldn't work. To offer any benefit, one vessel would have to be so close to the other, any advantage would be lost as soon as a gust of wind hits the first ship, she would collide with the second one within a few seconds. - and of course what looks close on AIS isn't necessarily so.

The way it works at the Holyhead births is thus: The single pier points almost to North. Terminal 3 (Irish Ferries) is on the west side and Terminal 5 (Stena Line) is on the east. During Westerly winds, The Irish Ferries vessel is forced onto the berth and the Stena Vessel is forced away. It is easier to berth on terminal 5 if there is already a vessel moored on Terminal 3, as the latter is acting as a wind break. During Easterlies the opposite occurs.

Sometimes they use each others  berths. I remember once when I was to travel on Nordica, I was loaded on at Terminal 3. (Pre-Epsilon days so the berth was vacant)


The insider

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Shelter at sea  is this some kind of joke 25 years  at sea myself   unbelievable nonsense  the ships would  have to be welded  together    no to mention  rules of the road  and colregs   

NathanBrady

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Dis is funny.  Dey would have to be so close one would hit de other!!!

Steven

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Shelter at sea  is this some kind of joke 25 years  at sea myself   unbelievable nonsense  the ships would  have to be welded  together    no to mention  rules of the road  and colregs
This is what I would have thought, surely too dangerous to have them close enough to make a difference.  Are they not meant to keep a certain distance in open water anyway?

In any case, how did ships like Cambria and Hibernia manage without Ulysses to protect them!
Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 12:15:38 AM by Steven
Steve in Belfast (suburbia)

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Davy Jones

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Cambria. Hibernia and all the other ferries of the Sealink and B&I era were smaller ships that used the inner harbour berths at Holyhead. Stena Explorer also had this advantage, as does the Swift at terminal 2.

Steven

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Cambria. Hibernia and all the other ferries of the Sealink and B&I era were smaller ships that used the inner harbour berths at Holyhead. Stena Explorer also had this advantage, as does the Swift at terminal 2.
I was referring to the notion that Adventurer uses Ulysses for shelter at sea rather than when berthing :).

Edit: also the mailboats, not the Sealink car ferries
Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 07:48:58 PM by Steven
Steve in Belfast (suburbia)

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TC

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  • WHEN IT MATTERS
Stena Carrier seems a big improvement on Neptune Agile. Good levels of car deck space. About 700 more lane meters than European Endeavour. I would find it interesting to see the efficiency levels - Endeavour vs Carrier.

If the bow doors on European Endeavour were brought back into operation, a refit arrangement with Stena could be an interesting option. Stena provide P&O with a vessel - eg Stena Carrier / Hibernia / Horizon for refits, and Stena use European Endeavour for month to cover Adventurer and Superfast X's dry-dockings.

In theory, following berthing trials, I could envisage some senario like that, as both companies could bring something to the table. Stena Horizon, I don't believe is a good refit option for Stena at Holyhead looking forward. On both occassions, she struggled. I recall in the past, European Endeavour's sister ship (prior to being delivered to LD Lines - I think she was named "T Rex") operated with relative ease from Holyhead. Naturally, her lower capacity than Adventurer was an issue, but from a turnaround perspective she was successful.

Next year, I would imagine European Seaway will be covering at Larne. Could she offer cover for Stena at Holyhead? Or operate in lieu of Superfast VII / VIII, the latter covering at Holyhead? Could Pride of Canterbury / Kent squeeze into Larne, and once duties have been completed, cover for Stena at Belfast, before going to perhaps H&W for a refit?
Im not sure how EUROPEAN SEAWAY would be a good cover vessel for Stena at Holyhead.  Her passenger capacity would be a major issue for instance, as it would also be between Belfast and Cairnryan.  You forget also that Stena Line and Stena Roro are separate companies.  P&O are chartering STENA CARRIER at the market rate from Stena RoRo - if Stena LINE were involved do you really think they would approve of giving one of their competitors MORE capacity?  The timing of the charter also appears to suit RoRo, as did the charter of STENA NORDICA (which by then had passed to Stena RoRo) to DFDS.

Stena do have a pooling arrangement with Irish Ferries, who are by far a bigger adversary than P&O.

It's just a theory, but if European Seaway can operate Larne - Cairnryan, I would think Belfast to Cairnryan would be straight forward enough.

StenaRoRo is indeed a separate company from Stena Line, but I imagine the latter could offer competitive charter rates, and likewise P&O could offer Stena Line a similar deal with European Seaway.

European Endeavour would be ideal for Holyhead, however her bow-doors would have to be brought back into operation for such an operation.

Brittany Ferries have a cosy arrangement with Stena Line. Stena Baltica is owned by Brittany Ferries, and likewise, Connemara is a Stena RoRo vessel.
Stena RoRo will take the offer for a vessel that suits Stena RoRo. If this wasn't the case we would more likely than not have HIGHLANDER and BLUE PUTTEES operating between Belfast and Cairnryan at present!  The whole point of having separate companies is that they will do what commercially makes sense for them.  As for there being a pooling arrangement with Irish Ferries, I think you are confusing a pooling arrangement with a space charter at the going commercial rate.  In a pooling arrangement both companies would be operating their vessels on a common schedule interchangeably with the same far structure and offers, rather than two different competing schedules!

With regard to Brittany Ferries, they needed tonnage and Stena RoRo happen to own some which was suitable.  This, again, is chartered at a rate acceptable to Stena RoRo and if a better offer came in then the vessel would go to that operator instead.  To be honest people read FAR to much into the perceived relationship between Brittany Ferries and the Stena Sphere.  STENA BALTICA/COTENTIN is a vessel that was surplus to requirements at Brittany Ferries and put on the open market.  Stena did look to purchase her but the purchase price was in excess of what they were prepared to pay.  If the companies were that blind to taking the best commercial offer then would Horizon not be sub-charted out and Etretat or Asterion/Connemara not be brought in (and upgraded) instead?


It's just a theory. Pride of Burgundy would be an interesting option as a relief vessel for the North Channel. She has the required capacity for Stena at Belfast, and has the same dimensions as European Seaway. The only issue for Burgundy operating from Larne is of course her rather slab sided design. Wind could pose a problem, she has in the past made contact with Seafrance Berlioz. (However Dover vessels have had plenty of incidents over the years - Pride of Provence (Stena Empereur), Pride of Aquitaine (Prins Filip / Calais Seaways), most recently Pride of Kent)

From what I have gathered the incident with Pride of Kent (which has seen her in dry-dock for several months) was more down to an elaborate maneuver. A similar incident occurred in the early 2000s with Pride of Provence. The captain undertook a rather unusual and elaborate swing at the harbour entrance at Dover, the harbour wall catching the stern of Provence.

I think with the right weather conditions, Pride of Kent / Canterbury could operate from Larne, and then if Stena were interested, charter her for a few weeks to cover Belfast and possibly Holyhead. As Pride of Kent / Canterbury has mezzanine decks, her already tight deck height is restricted further (not sure by how much), which does make Pride of Burgundy the more attractive option. (I understand Burgundy, like Europen Seaway has no mezzanine decks, allowing larger trailers to be carried).

I wouldn't rule out some sort of deal on refits (both companies chartering to each other at the market rate). I would think Stena would benefit from having a very capable (if not more capable) vessel operate Belfast to Cairnryan - allowing Superfast VII to go to Holyhead to cover Superfast X and Adventurer. Canterbury, Burgundy, and Kent are all very versatile vessels, and Stena RoRo don't exactly have binders of ships available that can operate from Belfast to Cairnryan - not forgetting Stena Horizon's period cover at Holyhead was an utter disaster. Delays of two hours discharging passengers is abysmal.

Stena RoRo have a good number of vessles P&O could charter for Dublin to Liverpool, and its not the first time a Dover vessel has been used on the North Channel - to much surprise (though not to myself) European Seaway was the designated relief vessel in 2017 for Larne. I would have thought it quite a logical move by both companies.

With regards to Stena's relationship with Brittany Ferries, I personally see it as very cosy. Both companies clearly are on very good terms and have a very good relationship. (I understand one of the E-Flexers are going to BF in the early 2020s). It wouldnt surprise me if Stena don't buy a 30% stake in the company, and eventually move to buy the whole company and re-brand Brittany Ferries to Stena Line. I could envisage a scenario similar to the transition from "North Sea Ferries", to "P&O North Sea Ferries", to eventually "P&O Ferries".


Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 12:10:13 AM by TC

hhvferry

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I imagine it would be almost impossible to get the myriad groups of farmers and local authorities that own and back Brittany Ferries to sell up. And it's somewhat improbable that Stena would want to buy them.

Steven

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I imagine it would be almost impossible to get the myriad groups of farmers and local authorities that own and back Brittany Ferries to sell up. And it's somewhat improbable that Stena would want to buy them.
Exactly, especially to a “foreign” company. 

BF is French, and proud of it.  Just look at the issues BF are having atm for daring to propose using a non-French crew on a single vessel for a few years!  As for Stena, it would be more grief than it’s worth.  One of the benefits of having only a few sailings to France a week is the lack of potential for he French unions to cause havoc for example.  Something Stena have had their fair share of experience of in the past.
Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 08:17:26 PM by Steven
Steve in Belfast (suburbia)

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HSS

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Meet the dockers

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Major incident on the European Causeway this morning

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-46604175


What I don’t understand is if this incident happened mid crossing how some people were trapped in their vehicles??