Dun Laoghaire Not out of the game yet?

Started by ferryfan, March 05, 2015, 12:22:54 PM

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DublinPeter

Cruise Plan is at consultation plan before it will be considered by An Bord Pleanala.  Will probably go to Oral Hearing later in the year with a decision in the Spring.  In the meantime, a number of the promised cruise visits to Dublin have instead gone to Dublin Port - no cruise company is anxious to tender passengers to shore when they can dock beside a nice solid quay instead! Ideally, to grow the market there needs to be some form of Joint Venture between Dublin Port and Dun Laoghaire Harbour Company which, if marketed properly, would have the potential to seriously boost visitor numbers.

To (eventually!) answer your question Dee, the 2 operators who have been seriously at the table are still there.  I think the Harbour Company will be distinctly anxious to make an announcement early in the Autumn and definitely before the transfer of shareholding to the local authority comes into play later in the year.  In the meantime, we got a funfair and two musical festivals will take place there during August.  Good to see the place getting use. 

Pete

HSS

Its ok, Stena may have left but we still have Proms On The Pier, anybody going? ;D

Steven

Quote from: DublinPeter on July 22, 2015, 12:15:21 AM
Cruise Plan is at consultation plan before it will be considered by An Bord Pleanala.  Will probably go to Oral Hearing later in the year with a decision in the Spring.  In the meantime, a number of the promised cruise visits to Dublin have instead gone to Dublin Port - no cruise company is anxious to tender passengers to shore when they can dock beside a nice solid quay instead! Ideally, to grow the market there needs to be some form of Joint Venture between Dublin Port and Dun Laoghaire Harbour Company which, if marketed properly, would have the potential to seriously boost visitor numbers.

To (eventually!) answer your question Dee, the 2 operators who have been seriously at the table are still there.  I think the Harbour Company will be distinctly anxious to make an announcement early in the Autumn and definitely before the transfer of shareholding to the local authority comes into play later in the year.  In the meantime, we got a funfair and two musical festivals will take place there during August.  Good to see the place getting use. 

Pete
Meanwhile Dublin Port has got approval from An Bord Pleanala for the ABR project, which will significantly improve access for cruise ships, allowing them to turn in the port as well as opening up the possibility of them docking closer to the city itself.  Work could start as early as this October.

http://www.dublinport.ie/news/singlenews/article/an-bord-pleanala-grants-permission-for-the-alexandra-basin-redevelopment-abr-project//2/
Steve in Belfast (suburbia)

Flickr: www.flickr.com/tarbyonline

DublinPeter

Quote from: Steven on July 23, 2015, 12:43:08 AM
Meanwhile Dublin Port has got approval from An Bord Pleanala for the ABR project, which will significantly improve access for cruise ships, allowing them to turn in the port as well as opening up the possibility of them docking closer to the city itself.  Work could start as early as this October.

http://www.dublinport.ie/news/singlenews/article/an-bord-pleanala-grants-permission-for-the-alexandra-basin-redevelopment-abr-project//2/

True indeed and good to see that development get the go-ahead too.  That's the reason I was suggesting the Joint Venture idea mentioned above.  I think there is a very marketable product there under a "Dublin Bay" banner with ships sailing into both ports, each of which have their benefits.  Chance to grow the overall market which would be good for everyone.  Will be a good few years before the Dublin project is completed too (huge job to basically rebuild North Wall Quay and the whole Alexandra basin infrastructure) so would be good to be building the trade while it is growing so steadily - if given the go ahead Dun Laoghaire could be up and running in 2017. 

Pete

Stena explorer

Plans for the new cruise jetty were lodged on 3rd July ,it is under strategic infrastructure projects, which should hopefully quicken  time for a decision ,hopefully late autumn.All dun laoghaire wants is to get a bit of the growing business in cruises  that Dublin gets .   I mean who would not love to disembark in dun laoghaire , it  is a beautiful location , it is very safe for tourists ,  fast train service to city is only a very short walk,it is such a fast growing business that I think both destinations can flourish.  and as soon as all the knockers of the project ,move on to something else the better . There was a protest back in  late May against  the cruise liners , and it was a very small protest, as I said I think the majority of people believe in giving it a go ,the town has nothing to lose

Steven

Royal Princess, Horizon, Celebrity Silhouette, & Magellan all in Dublin Port today - and thats before any of the planned infrastructure improvements have been made.  Dun Laoghaire is going to find it very hard to compete with that capacity, and also to entice those cruise lines away from Dublin Port (assuming Dublin Port don't slip up and do everything right).  Why would Dublin Port want to give away some of this very lucrative business to Dun Laoghaire?  TBH, they are more concerned with Dublin Port's market than the overall market.  The sooner Dun Laoghaire can get their plans into action, the better, else they risk missing the boat so to speak. 
Steve in Belfast (suburbia)

Flickr: www.flickr.com/tarbyonline

Stena explorer

I think dun laoghaire would be happy enough to get 2or 3 ships in each week during the season , they will never have the capacity to compete with Dublin port , and if the price is right it's amazing how quickly a company can move location. As I said before Dun laoghaire can't be beaten on its beautiful location . Coming up the entrance to Dublin port with its container depos industrial estates fuel deposetc etc just doesn't have the same impression, so I think marketed well dunlaoghaire should not have a problem getting some ships in once they have the facility's in place.

DublinPeter

#37
You're absolutely right Stena Explorer - both in terms of the attractiveness of the port of Dun Laoghaire and its environs as well as the business model being discussed.  Dun Laoghaire won't be competing on volume with Dublin Port, it will obviously be taking in less ships but if the market grows as projected, then there is plenty of business for everybody. 

The Economic Impact Report for the Dun Laoghaire cruise plan makes for interesting reading as does the planning application for the Alexandra basin project which says that the capacity at a redeveloped Dublin port would be 140 cruise ships per year.  Any more than this would impact on the high margin freight traffic.  Cruise traffic growth in the next 10 years is expected to run at about 8% which would have about 210 ships per year in the bay by 2030.  Both plans assume an average (using peaks and troughs of economics!) growth rate of about 5% every year for the next 30 years.

There are plenty of naysayers out there both locally and further afield but personally I wish both projects the very best.  If the market grows at even the medium level then everyone wins here.  We're an island nation and a beautiful one at that and we need to make the most of that and be positive in how we plan and invest in it.

Pete



Steven

Quote from: giftgrub on May 10, 2016, 08:10:26 PM
HSS and Lynx infrastructure being removed in Dun Laoghaire

http://dlharbour.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/NtoM-9-of-2016-Dismantling-of-equipmant-at-No-5-berth.pdf
Pretty much confirms what many of us expected - Dun Laoghaire's death as a ferry port.
Steve in Belfast (suburbia)

Flickr: www.flickr.com/tarbyonline

DublinPeter

Quote from: Steven on May 11, 2016, 10:55:40 AM
Quote from: giftgrub on May 10, 2016, 08:10:26 PM
HSS and Lynx infrastructure being removed in Dun Laoghaire

http://dlharbour.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/NtoM-9-of-2016-Dismantling-of-equipmant-at-No-5-berth.pdf
Pretty much confirms what many of us expected - Dun Laoghaire's death as a ferry port.

Fat lady is yet to sing there just yet as I've said before. HSS infrastructure was always going to be removed, makes no difference to any future operator.  Just the Lynx pontoon that's being removed  (was bespoke to the Lynx), ramps etc remain in situ and have recently been serviced. Still painfully slow negotiations about future route (s). It's like a giant game of chicken, nobody wants to jump first!

Pete

Steven

Quote from: DublinPeter on May 11, 2016, 04:43:07 PM
Quote from: Steven on May 11, 2016, 10:55:40 AM
Quote from: giftgrub on May 10, 2016, 08:10:26 PM
HSS and Lynx infrastructure being removed in Dun Laoghaire

http://dlharbour.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/NtoM-9-of-2016-Dismantling-of-equipmant-at-No-5-berth.pdf
Pretty much confirms what many of us expected - Dun Laoghaire's death as a ferry port.

Fat lady is yet to sing there just yet as I've said before. HSS infrastructure was always going to be removed, makes no difference to any future operator.  Just the Lynx pontoon that's being removed  (was bespoke to the Lynx), ramps etc remain in situ and have recently been serviced. Still painfully slow negotiations about future route (s). It's like a giant game of chicken, nobody wants to jump first!

Pete
How do you suggest vehicles are going to board the hypothetical fast craft then?  The pontoon should have been compatible with most, if not all InCats.  Unlike the HSS the lynx didn't require highly specialised infrastructure.  Any operator is going to require a new pontoon, which won't come cheap.  Theres also the matter of access to the berth - freight is out of the question due to the need to pass under the terminal.  Without being able to take any freight, the economics are going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to make add up.  Thats before you even consider the competition!  The longer we go on with out a service of course, the less likely it is there will be any.  Is there a market for a passenger and car only service?  Yes, but its nowhere near the size that it was and already being oversupplied by the existing operators who can also take larger vehicles to balance out the economics of the route.  If all parties really wanted to make a deal I suspect it would already have happened.  Good luck to Dun Laoghaire of course, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Steve in Belfast (suburbia)

Flickr: www.flickr.com/tarbyonline

DublinPeter

Quote from: Steven on May 11, 2016, 08:55:35 PM
Quote from: DublinPeter on May 11, 2016, 04:43:07 PM
Quote from: Steven on May 11, 2016, 10:55:40 AM
Quote from: giftgrub on May 10, 2016, 08:10:26 PM
HSS and Lynx infrastructure being removed in Dun Laoghaire

http://dlharbour.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/NtoM-9-of-2016-Dismantling-of-equipmant-at-No-5-berth.pdf
Pretty much confirms what many of us expected - Dun Laoghaire's death as a ferry port.

Fat lady is yet to sing there just yet as I've said before. HSS infrastructure was always going to be removed, makes no difference to any future operator.  Just the Lynx pontoon that's being removed  (was bespoke to the Lynx), ramps etc remain in situ and have recently been serviced. Still painfully slow negotiations about future route (s). It's like a giant game of chicken, nobody wants to jump first!

Pete
How do you suggest vehicles are going to board the hypothetical fast craft then?  The pontoon should have been compatible with most, if not all InCats.  Unlike the HSS the lynx didn't require highly specialised infrastructure.  Any operator is going to require a new pontoon, which won't come cheap.  Theres also the matter of access to the berth - freight is out of the question due to the need to pass under the terminal.  Without being able to take any freight, the economics are going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to make add up.  Thats before you even consider the competition!  The longer we go on with out a service of course, the less likely it is there will be any.  Is there a market for a passenger and car only service?  Yes, but its nowhere near the size that it was and already being oversupplied by the existing operators who can also take larger vehicles to balance out the economics of the route.  If all parties really wanted to make a deal I suspect it would already have happened.  Good luck to Dun Laoghaire of course, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Such cynicism in one so young Steven! Thankfully, the people working to advance the project don't share the views of the internet  ;)

The one point you are completely correct about is when you say that the longer there is no service, the more difficult it becomes. Agree totally and the pace of progress is incredibly and frustratingly slow for all manner of reasons and on all sides.

The pontoon has to go primarily because it belongs to Stena and they wouldn't be keen to leave it there to facilitate a competitor (even a hypothetical one).  It's also 23 years old and in need of some serious TLC.  Fear not though, there are other pontoons available at reasonable cost as and when one is required.  The underpass at DL isn't as small as you think, and realistically any seasonal fastcraft service won't really be competing for heavy freight business in any event (cars, vans, coaches etc would be its bread and butter).

As to whether a seasonal tourist fastcraft service is viable. Well, that's where the chicken comes in! To come back to your post, all parties definitely want to make a deal but everyone is waiting to see what everyone else does.  Hang up...no, you hang up.....

Pete

Fast Ferry Fan

Quote from: DublinPeter on May 11, 2016, 11:01:00 PM
As to whether a seasonal tourist fastcraft service is viable. Well, that's where the chicken comes in! To come back to your post, all parties definitely want to make a deal but everyone is waiting to see what everyone else does.  Hang up...no, you hang up.....

Even I've given up on this idea now.

If there was money to be made on the route, the bidding process would have been completed and operations would have begun.

IFPete

The current set up in Dun Laoire would need a bigger pontoon for the swift,

The pontoon in Holyhead is bigger.

Swift could in fact use a low quayside plinth because Swift has its own ramps unlike the Lynx.