Well Steven, I am currently doing an MA, and have plenty of expertise in Business. You seem very dismissive of the P&O's Heritage, have that be from the various companies they have bought, or the P&O Cruises division, that is no longer affiliated with P&O Ferries. Let me say a few names Canberra, Pride of Dover, Pride of Calais, Norland, Pride of York, Pride of Rotterdam. For their time these ships were very ahead of the competition. I think for a brand that is over 150 years old, they deserve a bit more respect.

Good for you.  Unfortunately studying or having a degree proves nothing but an ability to memorise and regurgitate information on demand.  I have met plenty of people with masters degrees in business or management who haven't got a clue on how to run any business.  Im not saying you don't, I am however saying that a degree proves little.

Pride of Dover and Calais - where mostly larger repeats of the Spirit class (themselves more groundbreaking, but owing much to the Free Enterprises that preceded them), and ordered by Townsend-Thoresen in any case.
Norland - was ordered when P&O was one of 6 shareholders in NSF - hardly a P&O ship!
Canberra - A cruise ship, not a ferry. 
Norsea/Norsun - again commissioned while P&O was only a partner, in this case albeit a 50% partner. 
Pride of Rotterdam/Hull - apart from being really big, please explain how they where groundbreaking.  Big stern loading ferry with cargo decks and passenger spaces isn't particularly ground breaking.

Ask yourself a question? With so much freight being moved, so many passengers, on Dover to Calais alone, surely they can make a profit. It shouldn't be that difficult. Pride of Rotterdam carries a fair bit of freight, and I have never seen either ship empty. Hull is carrying more than Fishguard, which Stena having to pour money into to literally keep afloat. 

As you should know, volume doesn't guarantee profit.  I have already stated that margins are low - this is a fact which has also been stated by P&O themselves.  Just who did pay for Spirit of France and Spirit of Britain? 

I think for a brand that is over 150 years old, they deserve a bit more respect.

As I have already stated, the P&O of today has little to do with the P&O of yesterday.  TBH I have a lot more respect for the likes of Irish Ferries/ICG than the current P&O operation.

Hull is carrying more than Fishguard, which Stena having to pour money into to literally keep afloat.   

That isn't exactly an achievement....  Just remember that Fishguard is being maintained by a vessel which cost Stena nothing.  She was already paid for when she joined the route.  Pride of Rotterdam and Pride of Hull cost substantially more than nothing and are around 10-20 years from being paid for by P&O's own accounting practices.  So of your two examples, who is really pumping cash into their operation?

Stena have more of an age issue, and will probably be required to spend a fortune on maintenance or new builds.

Just wait and see.  Stena don't pay top price, they wait and purchase at the right price a
nd often in bulk.  Don't be surprised if an order is placed for multiple new builds for more than one route built to a similar design which is easily adapted - a Stena hallmark.

Also P&O have lots of off-shore companies, so it would be interesting to see where most of the profits are hiding.

A company to be admired, indeed :s.

P&O Ferries have options, and lets not forget DP World have very deep pockets, and I'm sure they wouldn't let an asset go to the wall. I think the future of P&O lies more in leaner, more freight orientated operations.

As a pretty ruthless bunch, I'm sure P&O's sugar daddy isn't exactly delighted with the performance of some elements of the company dating all the way back to the takeover.  Rumours of the ferries division being sold off have been about ever since the takeover (with it said DP World only really wanted the lucrative ports division).  Problem is, who would buy it?

Also regarding brand perception P&O stands for quality. The average person would have heard of P&O either the cruising division or ferries. Regards to the branding its interesting that the DFDS Newcastle ships have been left out. DFDS prior to the refits were looking hardly A1 condition.

It may stand for quality in your eyes, but in the eyes of many it is increasingly less the case.  At least DFDS can brand ships on the same route the same way when they have the opportunity!  Unlike P&O's Liverpool - Dublin and Dover - Calais operations.

I think the company can be restructured to optimise performance. But to say P&O's management are somehow thick or green to the industry is not true. Helen Deeble, P&O's CEO has even been a director of a Stena company!

Yes, her position as a finance director explains many P&O actions under her leadership.  Such as not spending money on paint, not spending money on maintenance, not spending money on new signage (anyone who cares to visit Larne can still follow the signs, complete with old logo, to the Troon ferry btw) :p.  Of course the company can be restructured (yet again!) to improve performance, alas not under the current management team IMO and not without a clear direction and strategy for the further which is backed and implemented by all of the various divisions.

As a footnote I think I should add that I am not saying that any company is perfect or doesn't make errors.  Hell, Stena make quite a few of their own for example.  However, in my (and that of others) opinion, P&O's ferry operation just seems to be becoming more and more a shadow of their former selves.  The way they have treated the withdrawal of the Troon service is like a case study on what not to do - what airline would put out a full media release when they close a route, rather than quietly drop it?  Or put the fact they have dropped said route into all following marketing correspondence with customers, including emails about their 20% off sale?  The latest customer survey they have sent out (which is hosted on survey monkey no less!!!!!), looks like it was written by a secondary school pupil!

EDIT:  I forgot to say, that should this discussion continue it should probably be in a new thread rather than in fleet movements

I have read this thread with great fascination.  Steven, I tend to your point of you and your arguments are well made.  One other point to remember is that P&O was a large stock market listed company, controlled by institutional investors.  They pushed for the company for to be broken up, if I recall correctly, as they considered it to have too many varied interests: containers ships (which went to Maersk), Princess Cruises (which went to Carnival) and Bovis (which became a separate business).  The rest, including the ferries, went to Dubai.  Stena Line's parent company is controlled by the founder's family so it has been able to invest for the long-term and maintains its wide variety of interests, without being overly troubled with institutional investors pushing for maximum short-term profts to drive up dividend payments. This is the curse of modern capitalism, in my opinion, and it's interesting that the majority shareholding in Maersk is controlled by the founder's family too, albeit through Trusts. 

Having observed the ferry industry for 30 years, it has always seemed to me that P&O ferries is a very conservative company.  They have pulled out of numerous routes on the basis that they can't make them pay, yet almost all of them have seen other operators fill the void with relative ease.  Stena have had the last laugh over the English channel venture; I well remember a conversation with one of the captains of the current Stena Hollandica about the Europoort terminal.  He said that they (Stena) could not believe that P&O handed it all over to them for so little. 

As you say, Stena are not without their faults.  They bought Sealink at a vastly inflated price in 1990 and, were it not for the founder's wealth, it would have destroyed the entire business.  Then there was the disastrous experience building the now Gdansk route ships in Poland in the early 1980s.

Matt

Pride of Kent has been looking more than a little worse for wear lately (hopefully this Facebook link works for everyone)

(Image © Ray Goodfellow)
Thankfully she's currently tucked up at Damen Dunkerque.

might some fresh paint applied !

Tough old girls are the 'Darwins'. I think they are great ships to sail on. To be honest regardless what anyone thinks of P&O these are really nice vessels. Comfortable ships, and for 2003 their interiors were cutting edge, and in many respects set the standard.

Tough old girls are the 'Darwins'. I think they are great ships to sail on. To be honest regardless what anyone thinks of P&O these are really nice vessels. Comfortable ships, and for 2003 their interiors were cutting edge, and in many respects set the standard.

Ive seen ships being scrapped looking better than poor old Kent there.  The rust around the MES lines is to be expected, but some pretty bad patches on the bow doors there by the looks of things.  Hopefully she will get a full repaint.  The guys in France on Facebook will probably have pictures in the next couple of days - looks like she is adjacent to Malo Seaways (which appears to still be afloat). 

By P&O's own standards the Darwins due replacement in the next few years.  It'll be interesting to see what with. Personally I don't think it will be a repeat of the Spirits, but thats just speculation.

European Endeavour should be dry docked in the next few months, anyone want to run a book on what livery she will emerge in ?

Tough old girls are the 'Darwins'. I think they are great ships to sail on. To be honest regardless what anyone thinks of P&O these are really nice vessels. Comfortable ships, and for 2003 their interiors were cutting edge, and in many respects set the standard.

Ive seen ships being scrapped looking better than poor old Kent there.  The rust around the MES lines is to be expected, but some pretty bad patches on the bow doors there by the looks of things.  Hopefully she will get a full repaint.  The guys in France on Facebook will probably have pictures in the next couple of days - looks like she is adjacent to Malo Seaways (which appears to still be afloat). 

By P&O's own standards the Darwins due replacement in the next few years.  It'll be interesting to see what with. Personally I don't think it will be a repeat of the Spirits, but thats just speculation.

European Endeavour should be dry docked in the next few months, anyone want to run a book on what livery she will emerge in ?

The Darwins will be renamed Pride of Cairnryan & Pride of Larne and cascaded to the North Channel. European Causeway & European Highlander will be lengthened and transferred to Liverpool to Dublin.

Oh and European Endeavour will be out looking stunning in the new P&O Livery, and completing a very smart Irish Sea Fleet

The Darwins will be renamed Pride of Cairnryan & Pride of Larne and cascaded to the North Channel. European Causeway & European Highlander will be lengthened and transferred to Liverpool to Dublin.

You can't be serious about the Pride of Kent and Pride of Canterbury ending up at Larne - for two reasons. 1) why would they replace two ships with two older ships? 2) at 180m long I believe they would be too long to fit the berths at Larne! I also think they might not have the required 5m headroom for operation on the north channel but could stand to be corrected on that one.

Tough old girls are the 'Darwins'. I think they are great ships to sail on. To be honest regardless what anyone thinks of P&O these are really nice vessels. Comfortable ships, and for 2003 their interiors were cutting edge, and in many respects set the standard.

Ive seen ships being scrapped looking better than poor old Kent there.  The rust around the MES lines is to be expected, but some pretty bad patches on the bow doors there by the looks of things.  Hopefully she will get a full repaint.  The guys in France on Facebook will probably have pictures in the next couple of days - looks like she is adjacent to Malo Seaways (which appears to still be afloat). 

By P&O's own standards the Darwins due replacement in the next few years.  It'll be interesting to see what with. Personally I don't think it will be a repeat of the Spirits, but thats just speculation.

European Endeavour should be dry docked in the next few months, anyone want to run a book on what livery she will emerge in ?

Wow.  Just wow
The Darwins will be renamed Pride of Cairnryan & Pride of Larne and cascaded to the North Channel. European Causeway & European Highlander will be lengthened and transferred to Liverpool to Dublin.

Oh and European Endeavour will be out looking stunning in the new P&O Livery, and completing a very smart Irish Sea Fleet

Tough old girls are the 'Darwins'. I think they are great ships to sail on. To be honest regardless what anyone thinks of P&O these are really nice vessels. Comfortable ships, and for 2003 their interiors were cutting edge, and in many respects set the standard.

Ive seen ships being scrapped looking better than poor old Kent there.  The rust around the MES lines is to be expected, but some pretty bad patches on the bow doors there by the looks of things.  Hopefully she will get a full repaint.  The guys in France on Facebook will probably have pictures in the next couple of days - looks like she is adjacent to Malo Seaways (which appears to still be afloat). 

By P&O's own standards the Darwins due replacement in the next few years.  It'll be interesting to see what with. Personally I don't think it will be a repeat of the Spirits, but thats just speculation.

European Endeavour should be dry docked in the next few months, anyone want to run a book on what livery she will emerge in ?

They have aged alright. In the past few years externally streaks rust have been becoming prevalent, but it does happen with an intensive schedule, quick turnarounds, and rather basic 'express' dry docking schedules. Stena Adventurer, Stena Europe, and European Endeavour are looking pretty tired these days.

Back in 2003 they looked really good. Personally I think the 'POferries.com' livery looked better, bit more professional, but their interiors have always looked lovely. To think these were drastically different freighters (European Pathway and European Highway), it is easy to forget.

Regards Larne - Cairnryan, berthing issues and increased running costs would probably mean its a no goer. However if P&O moved to Belfast, they would be good ships to rival the Stena Superfasts. Work would be needed, bit of modernisation, but the passenger areas all date back to 2003, so there not exactly ancient. Stena Europe is 11 years older than the Darwins, so both ships could keep going for a good few years yet. European Highlander & European Causeway are likely cheaper to operate so probably be better options.

Tough old girls are the 'Darwins'. I think they are great ships to sail on. To be honest regardless what anyone thinks of P&O these are really nice vessels. Comfortable ships, and for 2003 their interiors were cutting edge, and in many respects set the standard.

Ive seen ships being scrapped looking better than poor old Kent there.  The rust around the MES lines is to be expected, but some pretty bad patches on the bow doors there by the looks of things.  Hopefully she will get a full repaint.  The guys in France on Facebook will probably have pictures in the next couple of days - looks like she is adjacent to Malo Seaways (which appears to still be afloat). 

By P&O's own standards the Darwins due replacement in the next few years.  It'll be interesting to see what with. Personally I don't think it will be a repeat of the Spirits, but thats just speculation.

European Endeavour should be dry docked in the next few months, anyone want to run a book on what livery she will emerge in ?

They have aged alright. In the past few years externally streaks rust have been becoming prevalent, but it does happen with an intensive schedule, quick turnarounds, and rather basic 'express' dry docking schedules. Stena Adventurer, Stena Europe, and European Endeavour are looking pretty tired these days.

Back in 2003 they looked really good. Personally I think the 'POferries.com' livery looked better, bit more professional, but their interiors have always looked lovely. To think these were drastically different freighters (European Pathway and European Highway), it is easy to forget.

Regards Larne - Cairnryan, berthing issues and increased running costs would probably mean its a no goer. However if P&O moved to Belfast, they would be good ships to rival the Stena Superfasts. Work would be needed, bit of modernisation, but the passenger areas all date back to 2003, so there not exactly ancient. Stena Europe is 11 years older than the Darwins, so both ships could keep going for a good few years yet. European Highlander & European Causeway are likely cheaper to operate so probably be better options.

Even in the hypothetical situation that P&O did move to Belfast (surely it would have been easy to switch the Troon route to test the waters if there was interest, especially given Secant's far higher carryings when they competed with P&O to Troon) Cairnryan could prove problematic.  While the berth itself could possibly be extended, its not the easiest port to berth at.  I understand things are tight as they are so with larger ships with a deeper draught things would be even more tricky.  Theres also the fact that they'd further add to the overcapacity issue on the corridor of course.  From a running costs perspective it may be possible to run them on 2 engines but the on-board services side of things would be costly.

P&O's own policy is to replace ships on the strait at around the 25 year old mark.  Given the intensity of their schedule I'd imagine they'd need a lot of technical work to keep them operational beyond 30 years (theres a lot of start-stopping for example on their schedule which accelerates wear on mechanical components compared to a 3 or 4 hour crossing a few times a day), and the vehicle decks are probably wearing quite thin as well if they haven't been renewed.  Even if they did fit I don't think the outlay required to prolong their lives could be justified given the limited revenue earning potential.

Interesting picture of one of the Zeebrugge twins on Facebook de other day showing a very patchy white paint job.  Obviously someone's tried to paint over the rust spots which have got recovered in rust streaks.  Looks like a very bad 80's video game graphic!  Apparently she's being sorted later in the year.  Would surely have made sense to do all of this work in the "[email protected] season?

Dover to Calais is a very tough, 24/7 operation. I imagine they just want to get her back into service as quick as possible. The longer she is in dry dock, more custom is being lost, likely to DFDS.

Despite having quite regular dry-dockings P&O never seem to give the ships a full 'head to toe' repaint. Its always just a few flicks of a paintbrush. Back in 2007 you can see on the MES lines, and other areas, where the rust streaks were being left build up. Rather than address the cause of the rust, P&O seem to just paint over it, and 6 months later most of them are back again!

The Pride of Burgundy also has the same problem. On Pride of Burgundy, windows seem to be giving problems as well. Stena Europe too has also been suffering from rusty windows. I think Stena might do a more intensive repair given she is off service for quite some time, but who knows! I would imagine when Stena Europe finally leaves Stena, she will probably spend a few years in the med before she hits the beach.

Regards the central corridor workhorse, European Endeavour, it will be interesting to see what livery she will get. The house flag on the funnels are looking faded, so we might see a new one. But regards to the hull, likely be just a repaint. Might get new P&O typeface to blend in with Norbay and Norbank.

 

Dover to Calais is a very tough, 24/7 operation. I imagine they just want to get her back into service as quick as possible. The longer she is in dry dock, more custom is being lost, likely to DFDS.

Despite having quite regular dry-dockings P&O never seem to give the ships a full 'head to toe' repaint. Its always just a few flicks of a paintbrush. Back in 2007 you can see on the MES lines, and other areas, where the rust streaks were being left build up. Rather than address the cause of the rust, P&O seem to just paint over it, and 6 months later most of them are back again!

The Pride of Burgundy also has the same problem. On Pride of Burgundy, windows seem to be giving problems as well. Stena Europe too has also been suffering from rusty windows. I think Stena might do a more intensive repair given she is off service for quite some time, but who knows! I would imagine when Stena Europe finally leaves Stena, she will probably spend a few years in the med before she hits the beach.

Regards the central corridor workhorse, European Endeavour, it will be interesting to see what livery she will get. The house flag on the funnels are looking faded, so we might see a new one. But regards to the hull, likely be just a repaint. Might get new P&O typeface to blend in with Norbay and Norbank.

 

DFDS currently have Calais Seaways off service as well remember.  She has already been repainted top to bottom in the new livery btw.  Its a shame P&O won't do the the same IMO - after all, they are the guys with all the ships, Seaway was spare not so long ago as well!  Stena Europe is getting (or already has had) a full repaint this year.  If we compare like for like, Seatruck's tonnage looks better than P&O's - and they don't have to be too concerned about tarnishing their passenger brand!!!

Tough old girls are the 'Darwins'. I think they are great ships to sail on. To be honest regardless what anyone thinks of P&O these are really nice vessels. Comfortable ships, and for 2003 their interiors were cutting edge, and in many respects set the standard.

Ive seen ships being scrapped looking better than poor old Kent there.  The rust around the MES lines is to be expected, but some pretty bad patches on the bow doors there by the looks of things.  Hopefully she will get a full repaint.  The guys in France on Facebook will probably have pictures in the next couple of days - looks like she is adjacent to Malo Seaways (which appears to still be afloat). 

By P&O's own standards the Darwins due replacement in the next few years.  It'll be interesting to see what with. Personally I don't think it will be a repeat of the Spirits, but thats just speculation.

European Endeavour should be dry docked in the next few months, anyone want to run a book on what livery she will emerge in ?

The Darwins will be renamed Pride of Cairnryan & Pride of Larne and cascaded to the North Channel. European Causeway & European Highlander will be lengthened and transferred to Liverpool to Dublin.

Oh and European Endeavour will be out looking stunning in the new P&O Livery, and completing a very smart Irish Sea Fleet

Is there any truth in this? Or is just speculation?

Speculation based on nothing factual I'd suggest. Like I said, Pride of Kent and Pride of Canterbury would NOT fit in Larne! According to their website the max length of vessel that can be handled on any of the berths in Larne is 170m and the Darwins are 180m.