Port Talbot Ferry Port

[A487]

Hi all

I've searched through the forums and posts and there are a few comments on Port Talbot, one being that the port's owner, ABP, considered moving the ferry terminal from their Swansea docks - presumably to the deep water harbour in Port Talbot.

This then got me thinking about how this could and would work in real life. There's no doubt that Port Talbot's deep water harbour is near enough perfect for ferries with a deep channel designed for large bulk carriers negating Swansea Bay's tidal depth restraints and plenty of room in the harbour even with two large bulk carriers berthed. Forgetting about the ferry infrastructure for a moment, the general infrastructure around the port is goo standard with a new dual carriageway from the steel plant to the nearby M4 which can take freight east towards London, Bristol and up to the Midlands through the Ross Spur. A key disadvantage of Pembroke Dock and Fishguard is the poor road access to both ports with the road to Pembroke Dock being marginally better although both still relatively poor single carriageway A roads.

There have also been discussions about a Bristol to Cork ferry/freight route as well albeit the constraints of such a route being noted, particularly the distance and time taken meaning one return journey every 2 days and the tidal/lock restrictions at Avonmouth. A Port Talbot ferry terminal could be a better option here with a ferry/freight route presumably being similar in time and distance as the old Swansea Cork Ferry service meaning a return journey per day and the more open access at the lock free harbour as well. In addition, the South Wales economy and transport is closely tied with that of Bristol and the West Country with people commuting from the respective areas. If a ferry service close to centres of population is required then Port Talbot would stand a good chance.

Where Port Talbot falls down as an idea (aside from any commercial arrangements with Tata as an example) is the large capital expenditure required to make the harbour a ferry port as well as a bulk carrier port. The new Stena port in Loch Ryan cost c£200m so this would be a big capital outlay by ABP and likely only with the backing of either an operator or the Welsh Government. This in turn leads on to other issues as Irish Ferries and Stena Line still seem embedded in Pembroke Dock and Fishguard respectively. Although the new linkspan at Fishguard has been delayed, neither operator shows any sign of moving (not that there are many areas to move to on the southern corridor!). So, Port Talbot would have to lure away IF or SL meaning job losses in one or both of the poorest areas of Pembrokeshire and some of the poorest areas of Wales. No Welsh Government is going to support that unless it's pushed into offensive mode to protect an industry or jobs so, for example, supporting a new Port Talbot ferry if both Pembroke Dock and Fishguard were to close or their operators pull out of their respective southern corridor routes for commercial reasons citing poor infrastructure etc and the Welsh Govt steps in to secure the strategic route by investing in a more modern terminal at Port Talbot.

If we were a modern day Brunel and building a new ferry terminal for the souther corridor today then I think Port Talbot harbour would be an ideal location with a similar set up to Loch Ryan Port and a freight friendly service to Cork (probably). Having seen the importance of Fishguard and Pembroke Dock to the local economy however, I would hope they remain although how two terminals can be sustained a short distance away from each other is difficult. Perhaps another option would be for Milford Haven Port Authority to take a concession/stake in Fishguard from Stena so that the waterway could focus on energy shipments and developments and Fishguard could focus on RoRo with focused investment and either capacity for 2 ships or multiple daily sailings from 2 operators.

Sorry in advance for the brain dump! Couldn't help but think about this recently! Any insight or views would be greatly appreciated! 

[Matt73]

Hi all

I've searched through the forums and posts and there are a few comments on Port Talbot, one being that the port's owner, ABP, considered moving the ferry terminal from their Swansea docks - presumably to the deep water harbour in Port Talbot.

This then got me thinking about how this could and would work in real life. There's no doubt that Port Talbot's deep water harbour is near enough perfect for ferries with a deep channel designed for large bulk carriers negating Swansea Bay's tidal depth restraints and plenty of room in the harbour even with two large bulk carriers berthed. Forgetting about the ferry infrastructure for a moment, the general infrastructure around the port is goo standard with a new dual carriageway from the steel plant to the nearby M4 which can take freight east towards London, Bristol and up to the Midlands through the Ross Spur. A key disadvantage of Pembroke Dock and Fishguard is the poor road access to both ports with the road to Pembroke Dock being marginally better although both still relatively poor single carriageway A roads.

There have also been discussions about a Bristol to Cork ferry/freight route as well albeit the constraints of such a route being noted, particularly the distance and time taken meaning one return journey every 2 days and the tidal/lock restrictions at Avonmouth. A Port Talbot ferry terminal could be a better option here with a ferry/freight route presumably being similar in time and distance as the old Swansea Cork Ferry service meaning a return journey per day and the more open access at the lock free harbour as well. In addition, the South Wales economy and transport is closely tied with that of Bristol and the West Country with people commuting from the respective areas. If a ferry service close to centres of population is required then Port Talbot would stand a good chance.

Where Port Talbot falls down as an idea (aside from any commercial arrangements with Tata as an example) is the large capital expenditure required to make the harbour a ferry port as well as a bulk carrier port. The new Stena port in Loch Ryan cost c£200m so this would be a big capital outlay by ABP and likely only with the backing of either an operator or the Welsh Government. This in turn leads on to other issues as Irish Ferries and Stena Line still seem embedded in Pembroke Dock and Fishguard respectively. Although the new linkspan at Fishguard has been delayed, neither operator shows any sign of moving (not that there are many areas to move to on the southern corridor!). So, Port Talbot would have to lure away IF or SL meaning job losses in one or both of the poorest areas of Pembrokeshire and some of the poorest areas of Wales. No Welsh Government is going to support that unless it's pushed into offensive mode to protect an industry or jobs so, for example, supporting a new Port Talbot ferry if both Pembroke Dock and Fishguard were to close or their operators pull out of their respective southern corridor routes for commercial reasons citing poor infrastructure etc and the Welsh Govt steps in to secure the strategic route by investing in a more modern terminal at Port Talbot.

If we were a modern day Brunel and building a new ferry terminal for the souther corridor today then I think Port Talbot harbour would be an ideal location with a similar set up to Loch Ryan Port and a freight friendly service to Cork (probably). Having seen the importance of Fishguard and Pembroke Dock to the local economy however, I would hope they remain although how two terminals can be sustained a short distance away from each other is difficult. Perhaps another option would be for Milford Haven Port Authority to take a concession/stake in Fishguard from Stena so that the waterway could focus on energy shipments and developments and Fishguard could focus on RoRo with focused investment and either capacity for 2 ships or multiple daily sailings from 2 operators.

Sorry in advance for the brain dump! Couldn't help but think about this recently! Any insight or views would be greatly appreciated!

No need to apologise!  It's a very interesting thought.  As one who has a bee in his bonnet about Bristol-Cork (no idea why), Port Talbot did occur to me in an idle moment as I was driving by on the M4 to Pembroke Dock last month.  For the foot passengers, I suppose a coach link from Bristol Parkway?  Don't know about the rail links around there.

Matt 

[Steven]

Problem is this would take a major commitment from ABP, who don't really seem to bothered about the facilities they have.  Take a look at Fleetwood for example.  Had ABP fulfilled their obligations to keep the channel dredged there might still be a ferry service to Northern Ireland!  Instead that ferry service effectively moved to competing Heysham.

I'd argue that as long as Irish Ferries remain a customer of Milford Haven then they have little incentive to bother developing an alternative port, especially given the volumes involved.  Theres no sign of Irish Ferries needing larger tonnage (thus improved infrastructure to accommodate it) either.  Stena carry less volume than Irish Ferries so its debatable whether such an investment would be made on their behalf either given the payback would come from port fees.

Wales-IE RoRo stats for anyone interested

https://statswales.gov.wales/Catalogue/Transport/Sea/NumberOfLorriesAndUnaccompaniedTrailersPassingThroughWelshPortsToTheRepublicofIreland-by-port

and for completion, passenger stats

https://statswales.gov.wales/Catalogue/Transport/Sea/NumberofSeaPassengersTravellingOnRoutesBetweenWalesAndTheRepublicofIreland-by-port

[Alan G]

I would have thought the biggest problem by far is that any significant distance further than Pembroke/Fishguard and 2 return trips a day with one ship will no longer be possible so considerably increasing the cost per lanemetre.

[Steven]

I would have thought the biggest problem by far is that any significant distance further than Pembroke/Fishguard and 2 return trips a day with one ship will no longer be possible so considerably increasing the cost per lanemetre.

Absolutely correct.  For whatever reason I was under the impression Port Talbot was a lot closer to Milford Haven than it is!

By Sea we are looking at 125nm compared to around 75.  That's a lot of extra fuel for starters!

[Collision-course]

Length of journey times are only an issue if you use a vessel fitted with the cheap engines used on the Irish Sea, there are ferries out there the size of Isle of Innishmore and Stena Superfast that can do Cork - Bristol in 7 hours or Cork - Pembroke in 4 hours.

[20knots]

Fishguard's road access leaves a lot to be desired but the port does have the asset of excellent rail access not just in terms of its integrated rail-ferry terminal for foot passengers but also available capacity for any potential future railfreight. This of course would need a sea change in operations.

Port Talbot railway station was upgraded recently. It is served by the Swansea to Paddington high speed train. For a hypothetical ferry passengers would be shuttled by bus between the station and terminal.

Pembroke Dock also has rail access though the station is situated a mile from the port and the tracks through the port were lifted a few decades ago. Eurolines and Megabus have the lion's share of the foot passenger traffic whereas Fishguard does rail best.

[Steven]

Length of journey times are only an issue if you use a vessel fitted with the cheap engines used on the Irish Sea, there are ferries out there the size of Isle of Innishmore and Stena Superfast that can do Cork - Bristol in 7 hours or Cork - Pembroke in 4 hours.

Eh?  This makes no sense.  Cheap engines? 

For the record Stena Superfast X could be capable of 28+ knots if Stena wanted her to.  The reason she isn't is fuel burn which increases at a faster rate the faster you go, as with any vessel.  The speed of a vessel at a given power output is dictated by many factors, especially hydrodynamics.  To use a modern design as an example, E-Flexer is designed to be able to travel at 18 knots on a single engine using a single screw.  It takes 2 engines and two screws to attain 24 knots (with the resulting increase in fuel burn).  More fuel burned equals higher ticket prices.  Even Visentini's have been known to attain 26 knots, but again theres a big fuel burn penalty.

Fishguard's road access leaves a lot to be desired but the port does have the asset of excellent rail access not just in terms of its integrated rail-ferry terminal for foot passengers but also available capacity for any potential future railfreight. This of course would need a sea change in operations.

Port Talbot railway station was upgraded recently. It is served by the Swansea to Paddington high speed train. For a hypothetical ferry passengers would be shuttled by bus between the station and terminal.

Pembroke Dock also has rail access though the station is situated a mile from the port and the tracks through the port were lifted a few decades ago. Eurolines and Megabus have the lion's share of the foot passenger traffic whereas Fishguard does rail best.

Road access to Fishguard is something that comes up quite frequently.  Unfortunately its a bit of a catch 22.  With traffic declining there is little incentive to upgrade, but without an upgrade its going to be hard to attract road traffic to what was a traditionally rail orientated route and reverse the trend.

[Collision-course]

Length of journey times are only an issue if you use a vessel fitted with the cheap engines used on the Irish Sea, there are ferries out there the size of Isle of Innishmore and Stena Superfast that can do Cork - Bristol in 7 hours or Cork - Pembroke in 4 hours.

Eh?  This makes no sense.  Cheap engines? 

For the record Stena Superfast X could be capable of 28+ knots if Stena wanted her to.  The reason she isn't is fuel burn which increases at a faster rate the faster you go, as with any vessel.  The speed of a vessel at a given power output is dictated by many factors, especially hydrodynamics.  To use a modern design as an example, E-Flexer is designed to be able to travel at 18 knots on a single engine using a single screw.  It takes 2 engines and two screws to attain 24 knots (with the resulting increase in fuel burn).  More fuel burned equals higher ticket prices.  Even Visentini's have been known to attain 26 knots, but again theres a big fuel burn penalty.

Yes, apologies, I was tired when I wrote that and the point I was trying to make was about cheaper to run engines, and the example was intended to be Stena Adventurer and not any of the Stena Superfasts (which as you say are capable of service speeds of 28 knots+), while the Superfasts are known to be thirsty when operating at higher speeds, ironically they are in the category I was talking about with conventional hulled ferries operating at around 30 knots, while the economics of these higher speed vessels is questionable when competing against slower vessels on short routes (passengers want more speed but are generally reluctant to pay more for it) I have seen some figures where playing with the fuel blend used can significantly lower costs while staying inside emissions regulations, on some vessels engine components and fuel injection systems may need to be changed, if you are a large corporate then this would be no problem, if you are a small operator looking to lease, you might have a job of work convincing the ship owner to make the modifications.
Again apologies for the confusion.