is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare

[market knowledge]

do either Pembroke or fishguard routes make a profit
it has become a fringe corridor for some time now
is it time to accept that is exactly what it is and provide a single quality ship operated jointly

[Matt73]

do either Pembroke or fishguard routes make a profit
it has become a fringe corridor for some time now
is it time to accept that is exactly what it is and provide a single quality ship operated jointly

With regard to the thread about the re-development of Fishguard harbour; it's interesting that the developers are prioritising the marina and commerical developments over the ferry port.  If Stena really believed in the future of the route, wouldn't the ferry terminal be the first priority?

Stena and Irish Ferries' predecssors, Sealink and B&I, tried a joint venture in the late 1980s focussing on the old St Brendan (ex Stena Normanidca) which was painted in a hideous joint livery.  Like many of the Sea Containers Sealink era joint ventures, it foundered very quickly and B&I went back to running from Pembroke. 

I too would like to know whether Stena actually make profit on the Rosslare route.  I very much doubt it and it doesn't conform to their policy of operating in and out of major population centres.  In his memoir, James Sherwood (founder of Sea Containers) remarked that he sold Sealink to Stena without them looking at the books and he was amazed they took Fishguard-Rosslare as it was making a loss then.  I suspect that the Felicity and Koningin Beatrix years helped turn it around. Can anybody fill in the blanks please?

We debated on here about four years ago a possible new route from Bristol to Cork, both major population centres with excellent road and rail links, unlike Fishguard and Rosslare; I believe the roads to/from Pembroke are now better.  Cork is in receipt of €1 billion EU regional development funding to modernise and develop the port including new ro/ro and cruise terminal facilities.  I don't know much about the port facilities at Bristol, except that both harbours have to be reached through locks, and that Ugland auto carriers have a big trade car terminal at one of them. Portbury? Would the lock be detrimental to the operation of a ferry service?  Could a ro/ro berth be built outside the lock on the Severn, a bit like P&O did at Hull when the Pride of Hull/Rotterdam were built? 

The cynic in me says that Stena are waiting for the commercial and marina re-development of Fishguard to begin in earnest.  I think there is a also a large wind farm to be constructed at sea near to Fishguard.  The current ferry berth would be an ideal place to maintain the turbines when it is operational.  Once the future of the port is assured they can then withdraw and open a new route.  If they could leave Larne and shut down Stranraer, I see no reason why they would not pull the plug on Fishguard and Rosslare.  Were they to do so, I suspect they would move the Rosslare-Cherbourg service to Cork as well; a saving on fuel costs too. 

Incidentally, does anybody know what is happening at Stranraer?  It's now six years since it closed. 

Just where this would leave Irish Ferries is a moot point.  Is their service making a profit? 

I can't recall the last time Stena was part of a joint venture, aside from the Harwich-Hook route in 1989-90, when the had just purchased SMZ and were bidding to takeover Sea Containers.  Wouldn't they want to keep all of thea action to themselves?

Looking forward to the debate on this one.  The southern corridor is by far the weakest link on the Irish Sea.  It's high time it was sorted out and fortune favours the bold!

Matt

[Niall]

Matt you should post your query on https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ferriesirish/ where you can get a quick and detailed reply from members.

[giftgrub]

Just a couple of things to remember, the M50 is reaching capacity in Dublin and during rush hour resembles a car park rather than motorway and the continued thinking that all routes must lead to Dublin could be a foolhardy decision, the southern corridor could be a very handy alternative for any traffic that needs to go south of Dublin for the future.

Investment in roads - making Southern Corridor more accessible

Motorway from Wexford to Dublin under construction

New Ross bypass under construction



Both shipping companies seem quite happy to run their respective operations and continue to invest in their respective offerings.


With regards to Sealink days and Sea Containers takeover, In 1992 the Fishguard Rosslare route was the second most profitable route in the combined Stena / Sealink company with Gothenburg Fredrickshaven first. ( source Stena Line The Story of a Ferry Company - page 243).

I doubt there will be any change in the next few years and with impact of Brexit we might even see Duty Free return to the Irish Sea !

[hhvferry]

Do Stena view Fishguard-Rosslare as a route in its own right which has to make a profit or do they view the Irish market as one - with them, as market leaders, covering every sector offering a complete suite of alternative routes and crossings for hauliers to choose from? If the latter, there could be very good strategic reasons to keep Fishguard open even if the profitability is low or non-existant (and with the age of the Stena Europe the capital cost involved in the route is minimal, albeit operational costs will be higher than using a newer ship). In Scandinavia the Grenaa-Varberg route is by repute kept open as a spoiler just so that no-one else ever again dares to come close to entering the market in competition on Stena's home turf.

Stena have been involved in quite a few joint ventures, not least P&O Stena Line but also as owners of the Swedish part of Scandlines until it all got absorbed into mainstream Stena Line. They even managed to go into a joint venture with themselves when HH Ferries and Scandlines, which had been operating in competition despite being owned by different branches of the Stena group, came together a couple of years back. Then there have been myriad one or two-ship operations, such as Stena Daea Line, Stena SeaLine and, a few years back, Stena Tor Line.

[Steven]

Do Stena view Fishguard-Rosslare as a route in its own right which has to make a profit or do they view the Irish market as one - with them, as market leaders, covering every sector offering a complete suite of alternative routes and crossings for hauliers to choose from? If the latter, there could be very good strategic reasons to keep Fishguard open even if the profitability is low or non-existant (and with the age of the Stena Europe the capital cost involved in the route is minimal, albeit operational costs will be higher than using a newer ship). In Scandinavia the Grenaa-Varberg route is by repute kept open as a spoiler just so that no-one else ever again dares to come close to entering the market in competition on Stena's home turf.

Stena have been involved in quite a few joint ventures, not least P&O Stena Line but also as owners of the Swedish part of Scandlines until it all got absorbed into mainstream Stena Line. They even managed to go into a joint venture with themselves when HH Ferries and Scandlines, which had been operating in competition despite being owned by different branches of the Stena group, came together a couple of years back. Then there have been myriad one or two-ship operations, such as Stena Daea Line, Stena SeaLine and, a few years back, Stena Tor Line.

Think you hit the nail on the head here.  Keeping the route open is a strategic move.  Some of the loads carried are abysmal, but it isn't all plain sailing for Irish Ferries either.  It will be interesting to see how things develop with Fishguard, but Pembroke dock isn't exactly ideal either from what I understand.

Stena are no strangers to joint ventures, but in order to form a joint venture you need two willing parties! 

[PaddyL]

Matt you should post your query on https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ferriesirish/ where you can get a quick and detailed reply from members.

Only if you want poor quality replies and a healthy dose of xenophobia.

[Matt73]

Do Stena view Fishguard-Rosslare as a route in its own right which has to make a profit or do they view the Irish market as one - with them, as market leaders, covering every sector offering a complete suite of alternative routes and crossings for hauliers to choose from? If the latter, there could be very good strategic reasons to keep Fishguard open even if the profitability is low or non-existant (and with the age of the Stena Europe the capital cost involved in the route is minimal, albeit operational costs will be higher than using a newer ship). In Scandinavia the Grenaa-Varberg route is by repute kept open as a spoiler just so that no-one else ever again dares to come close to entering the market in competition on Stena's home turf.

Stena have been involved in quite a few joint ventures, not least P&O Stena Line but also as owners of the Swedish part of Scandlines until it all got absorbed into mainstream Stena Line. They even managed to go into a joint venture with themselves when HH Ferries and Scandlines, which had been operating in competition despite being owned by different branches of the Stena group, came together a couple of years back. Then there have been myriad one or two-ship operations, such as Stena Daea Line, Stena SeaLine and, a few years back, Stena Tor Line.

Think you hit the nail on the head here.  Keeping the route open is a strategic move.  Some of the loads carried are abysmal, but it isn't all plain sailing for Irish Ferries either.  It will be interesting to see how things develop with Fishguard, but Pembroke dock isn't exactly ideal either from what I understand.

Stena are no strangers to joint ventures, but in order to form a joint venture you need two willing parties!

Thanks all for the responses and for the information, especially for reminding me about Fishguard being the second most profitable route in 1992!  Also to Steven about the joint ventures. 

Whilst I understand all of your points, nobody addressed specifically whether a route from Bristol to Cork is possible with the state of the market as it currently stands, even with Fishguard remaining open. Both Bristol docks are currently accessible by locks.  Would they make it less attractive, or could a berth be built on the river?  I know the Severn has very strong tidal currents, which might prohibit such a move.

I recall discussion on this forum in the past about Stena looking at moving to Pembroke, but ruling it out because of the lack of additional ro/ro facilities.  I also recall mention of Swansea, but this was ruled out due to the size of the harbour and the road connections to the port.

Sorry, I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about Bristol-Cork at the moment.  Apologies for being a bore!

Thanks.

Matt

[Matt73]

Matt you should post your query on https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ferriesirish/ where you can get a quick and detailed reply from members.

Only if you want poor quality replies and a healthy dose of xenophobia.

I am a member of one Facebook group about Irish Sea ferries, but only for the pictures that are posted.  I have always been impressed by the quality of postings on this forum, the courtesy with which views are expressed and the level of detail that some members have.   

Thanks.

Matt

[Kieran]

Matt you should post your query on https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ferriesirish/ where you can get a quick and detailed reply from members.

Admin noteI've always felt this forum is a better place than Facebook groups. Everything is public, not hidden.

Whilst I understand all of your points, nobody addressed specifically whether a route from Bristol to Cork is possible with the state of the market as it currently stands, even with Fishguard remaining open. Both Bristol docks are currently accessible by locks.  Would they make it less attractive, or could a berth be built on the river?  I know the Severn has very strong tidal currents, which might prohibit such a move.

I recall discussion on this forum in the past about Stena looking at moving to Pembroke, but ruling it out because of the lack of additional ro/ro facilities.  I also recall mention of Swansea, but this was ruled out due to the size of the harbour and the road connections to the port.

It's not half as bad as the bee in other organisations bonnets about Swansea! When Fastnet Line was being set up, this is something I raised. From what I understand, the market research then was mainly Cork Swansea, with incentives from both ports to open a route. ABP have been talking for 20 years at least about moving the ro-ro berth to Port Talbot.
Bristol was looked at a then, but the berth situation was a problem at the time. The crossing time would also be an issue 214 nautical miles (at 18kts, that would take 12 hours as opposed to 166 to Swansea which takes 9ish).
In reality a new feasibility study would have to be done to work out if it's viable...

[Steven]

The Bristol thing has been discussed in some depth on the forum previously. As Kieran says, the distance is a problem.  Especially considering that there isn't that much of an advantage for potential customers to offset the inevitably higher fares resulting from the higher costs.  Perhaps an unaccompanied freight service could work, but are the volumes there on the southern corridor to sustain another route?  From a passenger perspective, they'd have a choice of either 12 hours on a ferry or an hour on a direct flight - I know the option I would take!!!  I doubt any operators will be making major investments port infrastructure unless it needs replaced until the economic situation of both the UK and EU is more certain in any case.

[Steven]

Matt you should post your query on https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ferriesirish/ where you can get a quick and detailed reply from members.

Admin noteI've always felt this forum is a better place than Facebook groups. Everything is public, not hidden

Agreed.  Unless Facebook groups are very tightly controlled the quality of discussion can be very poor as well.  Yes, you may get less replies on here, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.  The big issue many have with Facebook is how quickly something someone dreamed up can become 'fact'. 

[PaddyL]

The Bristol thing has been discussed in some depth on the forum previously. As Kieran says, the distance is a problem.  Especially considering that there isn't that much of an advantage for potential customers to offset the inevitably higher fares resulting from the higher costs.  Perhaps an unaccompanied freight service could work, but are the volumes there on the southern corridor to sustain another route?  From a passenger perspective, they'd have a choice of either 12 hours on a ferry or an hour on a direct flight - I know the option I would take!!!  I doubt any operators will be making major investments port infrastructure unless it needs replaced until the economic situation of both the UK and EU is more certain in any case.

The biggest issue faced on a longer crossing such as Cork - Swansea is that passengers can have false expectations of fares.  With cabins it will always be more expensive than say the Rosslare routes but you are getting a night's accommodation too.  Impossible to solve unless the public is willing to pay more.

[A83]

As I understand it Portbury [Bristol's main dock] is accessed through lock gates as there is a 42 foot? difference between high and low tide. This raises the question [to which I do not have an answer] is it possible to access the lock gates from the  Bristol Channel even at low tide and therefore is it possible to run a scheduled service into the port?

[TC]

Not sure about locks and personally don't know much about Bristol, but given Seatruck's decision to start an operation to the port, I imagine this is being monitored by the competition.

Regarding a vessel, I imagine a vessel like Norbank or Isle of Innisfree would be best suited on a Cork / Rosslare - Bristol operation. 

I think a Fastnet Line made a big mistake when they chose M.V. Julia to launch the service. Mainly because of size, running costs and lack of freight capacity. P&O also made this mistake when operating the Portsmouth - Bilbao route. I don't think anyone could complain Pride of Bilbao wasn't a nice ship, it's just the vessel lacked freight capacity and cost a fortune to run, particularly from a fuel consumption perspective.