Seven Ferry Operators Express Interest to Run Seasonal Dun Laoghaire Service!
Jehan Ashmore on Afloat.ie
http://afloat.ie/port-news/ferry-news/item/28010-seven-ferry-operators-express-interest-to-run-seasonal-dun-laoghaire-service
Good to see such interest! Apparently it's not just routes to Holyhead that have been suggested by operators.
I saw mention in the press of a proposed tourist route to France via South Wales (presumably would require work at DL to accomodate a conventional) in addition to Liverpool and IOM as well as the usual suspects (plus at least one other) to Holyhead using fastcraft. Obviously we won't see the details of the expressions (at this stage) unless the operators themselves choose to show their hands. We can probably guess at most of them!
Next stage would be a more formal tender for a service/services. Interesting days.
Pete
Who do people think the operators are?
Expression of interest. Something anyone can submit. Something I could submit (wish I had now).
Anyone who has actually looked at the invitation knows that it was specific for a seasonal service between Dun Laoghaire and Holyhead, and that the berth is a max of 140m long. The plans must also be compatible with the master plan. Putting that aside...
Route to Liverpool = 2 round trips a day with a single fast craft. Been tried and didn't work, and that was when the airlines where less aggressive in their pricing.
Route to Holyhead = Irish ferries dump their (swift) prices and force the operator out of business, besides the central corridor is already over capacity. Does anyone really think Stena are going to let some newcomer take a share of their market after they have invested so much in SSF X?
Route to France via Wales = a non-starter. Besides, how difficult would it be really for IF to run Epsilon to France around the week if they though it was viable?
Good luck to anyone who thinks they can run a ferry service from Dun Laoghaire. Not only will they need it, they'll also need very deep pockets just to get off the ground and a vessel capable of operating to Dun Laoghaire. Sorry to be so cynical.
Quote from: LiverpoolIrishLiam on March 05, 2015, 04:12:11 PM
Who do people think the operators are?
Whats Ernst Munk up to these days? Or the guy behind Euroferries? Or even that Regina Line lot? ::)
Quote from: LiverpoolIrishLiam on March 05, 2015, 04:12:11 PM
Who do people think the operators are?
Think I've mentioned this possibility before, but my first guess is IOMSPCo. This would give them their own dedicated berth in Ireland for Mannanan - something they lack in Dublin. However, I would expect Ben My Chree would continue sailing to Dublin with the freight. Not sure about her draft either.
Fair point being made here about the steps that IF/Stena would take to preserve their position on the Central Corridor. Easiest way to protect that position would seem to me to be to do it themselves. Do not be surprised if Swift is calling at Dun Laoghaire next Summer. Makes the competition problem go away and the monopoly continues.
The IOMSPC point makes sense too. Handy for them as Davy says to have their own berth. No problem for Mannanan obviously but BMC would need a bit of work on draft, berth length is no problem. Additionally, the HSS kit will have to be removed (at considerable cost to Stena remember) so there is scope to do work on that side of the berth which in turn would free up that area between terminal and Carlisle pier for leisure redevelopment.
Pete
Quote from: DublinPeter on March 05, 2015, 10:48:14 PM
Do not be surprised if Swift is calling at Dun Laoghaire next Summer. Makes the competition problem go away and the monopoly continues.
I was thinking exactly the same...
Just to diversify ever so slightly, I notice Google Maps have recently updated their satellite view of Dun Laoghaire and a fairground is now in place on Carlisle Pier. Is this a permanent fixture or a travelling fair which happened to be in the right place at the right time?
No they are not a permanent fixture
Quote from: DublinPeter on March 05, 2015, 10:48:14 PM
Fair point being made here about the steps that IF/Stena would take to preserve their position on the Central Corridor. Easiest way to protect that position would seem to me to be to do it themselves. Do not be surprised if Swift is calling at Dun Laoghaire next Summer. Makes the competition problem go away and the monopoly continues.
The IOMSPC point makes sense too. Handy for them as Davy says to have their own berth. No problem for Mannanan obviously but BMC would need a bit of work on draft, berth length is no problem. Additionally, the HSS kit will have to be removed (at considerable cost to Stena remember) so there is scope to do work on that side of the berth which in turn would free up that area between terminal and Carlisle pier for leisure redevelopment.
Pete
Don't be surprised if Swift is gone in a couple of years either. Anyone who plans to operate has to do so in a way which is compatible with the master plan which is going to put limits on things. The invitations have been sought to operate from the existing berth to the side of the HSS berth. What's the maximimum craft length from the HSS berth? Can't be much if any longer than the berth already available?!?
There would also be a rise in costs for IF by relocating Swift - one example being staffing needing duplicated across the 2 locations. They'd be doing the opposite of what Stena are doing and increasing costs and reducing efficiency.
Just had a look at the specs for Ben My Chree. Her loaded draft is only 5.6m. Not sure of the amount of water below the link-span on St Michaels pier but she may possibly be able to swim there. St Columba was 4.7m and she berthed there regularly. Of course with only little use recently - and that by the lynx - the berth is bound to have silted up a bit but as long as it's not rock down there it is easily dredged.
http://www.steam-packet.com/OurVessels/Ben-My-Chree
If IOMSPCo's Primary Freight ship was to come to the port however, how would that lie with the locals, whom were glad to lose the heavy traffic to Dublin? (Although I would guess the HSS would have brought more freight on a weekly basis than Ben My Chree is ever likely to do).
The Isle Of Man Steam Packet Company have no interest in changing their specified Republic of Ireland Port from Dublin to Dun Laoghaire.
A limited number of sailings have already been operated to Dun Laoghaire in the past, and a permanent change in Port has already been looked at, though the Steam Packet Company intends to continue serving Dublin Port.
Swift may not be around in a few years but for now she's there and very much part of the game. I still reckon she is the most likely visitor to Dun Laoghaire for the next couple of summers at least. The cost of having her operate from DL in the Summer really isn't that much - Stena used a handful of contract staff operating the terminal on a part-time basis in the Summer and it wasn't the economics of that which killed the HSS!
Yes, there is an extra expense but it's cheaper and more efficient than having to go through the mill of competing with any new arrival who might well take the trip South and take even a modest market share.
The Masterplan seeks to consolidate shipping in the 'middle' of the current area. Since HSS is gone, it would make sense in the longer term to build the cruise berth where it is proposed near the marina and move the fastcraft berth to where the HSS gear currently is. That's currently a 6m+ draft (although it's going to be dredged for the cruise berth) with really as much space as you want in terms of length sticking out into the harbour. That's longer term though - in the short to medium term, there is space for pretty much any fastcraft on St Michaels pier with the pontoon and gangway from the terminal building.
Pete
It looks like the Dun laoghaire cruise season has run in to big problems a week into it ,as the MSC splendida has decided to berth in Dublin port instead of dunlaoghaire on its summer visits ,and now royal princess which did berth off dunlaoghaire last week has now decided to berth in Dublin port on Sunday instead ,she is due to visit dunlaoghaire 8 more times this summer ,and by the looks of it is going to go to Dublin port instead, One can't blame them ,the tenders from the ship to shore are a lot of hassle ,in these times slow , time consuming ,choppy seas etc one can't beat just walking down the gangway and you are there. . I suppose the best dunlaoghaire can do is ,that once they get the green light for the cruise terminal, that instead of the 15 month build plan they go full on and get it built in half the time ,and get a bit of business in next summer.
Quote from: DublinPeter on March 10, 2015, 06:04:38 PM
Swift may not be around in a few years but for now she's there and very much part of the game. I still reckon she is the most likely visitor to Dun Laoghaire for the next couple of summers at least. The cost of having her operate from DL in the Summer really isn't that much - Stena used a handful of contract staff operating the terminal on a part-time basis in the Summer and it wasn't the economics of that which killed the HSS!
Yes, there is an extra expense but it's cheaper and more efficient than having to go through the mill of competing with any new arrival who might well take the trip South and take even a modest market share.
The Masterplan seeks to consolidate shipping in the 'middle' of the current area. Since HSS is gone, it would make sense in the longer term to build the cruise berth where it is proposed near the marina and move the fastcraft berth to where the HSS gear currently is. That's currently a 6m+ draft (although it's going to be dredged for the cruise berth) with really as much space as you want in terms of length sticking out into the harbour. That's longer term though - in the short to medium term, there is space for pretty much any fastcraft on St Michaels pier with the pontoon and gangway from the terminal building.
Pete
The masterplan seems to indicate that the HSS berth is needed for the cruise berth anyway. Certainly for wider ships it would seem necessary to me. Again, tenders where sought to operate from the existing fast craft berth. Any change to the masterplan would surely involve yet more wrangling and another application for planning permission?
Aprils figures at least show a downward trend overall in GB to Ireland passengers and cars. There is a shift towards the central corridor of course, but its hardly an ideal scenario for a new operator. From the perspective of moving the swift, it'll take a lot of marketing (or Ryan Air style fare dumping in the short term at least) to persuade people that some place "near" Dublin is better than somewhere called Dublin (albeit in the middle of an industrial park). Theres also other considerations, such as where to put the crew - Ulysses is going to be in Dublin port whilst the crew are in Dun Laoghaire, so they'll need bused up to get some sleep, etc.
Quote from: Stena explorer on May 21, 2015, 03:01:12 PM
It looks like the Dun laoghaire cruise season has run in to big problems a week into it ,as the MSC splendida has decided to berth in Dublin port instead of dunlaoghaire on its summer visits ,and now royal princess which did berth off dunlaoghaire last week has now decided to berth in Dublin port on Sunday instead ,she is due to visit dunlaoghaire 8 more times this summer ,and by the looks of it is going to go to Dublin port instead, One can't blame them ,the tenders from the ship to shore are a lot of hassle ,in these times slow , time consuming ,choppy seas etc one can't beat just walking down the gangway and you are there. . I suppose the best dunlaoghaire can do is ,that once they get the green light for the cruise terminal, that instead of the 15 month build plan they go full on and get it built in half the time ,and get a bit of business in next summer.
At the moment there seem still to be some objections to overcome. Some of us saw this coming tbh, especially with Dublin looking to expand their own capability.
When the Stena Lynx was launched between Dun Laoghaire and Holyhead in 1993 the literature used the term "Dublin Bay". In fact I recall having to check that the service was actually serving Dun Laoghaire – my gut feeling was 90% sure it was but the term "Dublin Bay" whilst a nice marketing appellation created a bit of uncertainty.
Essentially anyone who has lived in Ireland all/most their lives is well aware where Dun Laoghaire is located. The only exception to that would be people who have moved to Ireland from elsewhere in the world and perhaps youngsters.
Over the years a much greater proportion of folk here would have emigrated across to Britain hence Dun Laoghaire is essentially universally known here whereas in Britain away from Anglesey/N. Wales knowledge may be more patchy and confined to folk with Irish connections etc...
Dun Laoghaire is an easy sell for foot passengers due to the adjacency of the rail station and through ticketing - much more appealing to take the DART – essentially turn up and enjoy a scenic run along the coast citywards (or south towards Bray/Wicklow for that matter) only taking a few minutes longer than a bus from Dublin port. For motorists not so easy a sell.
Like many matters a glass half full half empty scenario. As was said some months ago it's very easy to be negative about things and why things can't be done and of course there are commercial considerations/practicalities but my personal opinion is that a bit more positivity is needed in the shipping sphere at times.
Very well said 20Knots. I think the positivity and expansionist spirit that existed in many areas of business took a real hammering from the economic collapse and it is only now that people are starting to look at speculating in business again now. The playing field has changed very considerably since that collapse (the migration towards the central corridor being the principal effect) but as with every business, there is always room to grow the market and take a chance.
In Dun Laoghaires case specifically, the Harbour Company are in serious discussions with 2 operators and are under quite a bit of pressure to get a win on this one so I would say it is now much more likely than 3 months ago that there will be a DL service in 2016. Yes there is risk involved, but that's how commerce works :)
Pete
Interesting you say there are two company's interested in operating out of Dun laoghaire in 2016' anyone any clues to who they are?. Anyway there is the potential for 250,000 passangers to use the service in the April -September season, for the average motorist, it is not that difficult to get to Dun laoghaire (15 minutes off peak from junction 16 on m50 cherrywood to dunlaoghaire , even a few minutes less if you get a run of the traffic lights ,also with rail and bus station 50 meters away it's very handy for foot passangers, only problem is trying to sinc ferry times in with holyhead rail departures ,but could easily be done , and of course the big one , To Have A very Competive Price. And good advertising and anything is possible. I always felt one of the big problems with the HSS in recent years was ,the cost to travel on it for cars it was always way more expensive to travel on than the normal ferry, and it only operating only one journey each way,giving poor choice..the tourist market is a big chunk of business during the spring ,summer season and can be very profitable for the operators . So interesting times ahead , and it can only be good for competition.
What ship would be used on a Dun Laoghaire route?
It would be a fast craft ,if it was p&o it could be the hsc express, thelinkspan etc is all in place as the stena lynx used to plough the route.
Sure P&O are handing the Express back to her owners and they are selling her??
With the rumours that p&o are going to pull the express from Troon at end of season ,could there be a possibility they are going to move it to. Dun laoghaire for a season or two to see how it goes ,it would give them a presence on the Dublin Holyhead central corridor , and there is money to be made in the summer season
Quote from: Stena explorer on June 06, 2015, 11:15:18 AM
With the rumours that p&o are going to pull the express from Troon at end of season ,could there be a possibility they are going to move it to. Dun laoghaire for a season or two to see how it goes ,it would give them a presence on the Dublin Holyhead central corridor , and there is money to be made in the summer season
Not going to happen. P&O told staff yesterday that the charter of the ship is not going to be renewed after October.
Quote from: Stena explorer on June 06, 2015, 11:15:18 AM
With the rumours that p&o are going to pull the express from Troon at end of season ,could there be a possibility they are going to move it to. Dun laoghaire for a season or two to see how it goes ,it would give them a presence on the Dublin Holyhead central corridor , and there is money to be made in the summer season
No chance. She is being returned and I believe is already for sale. Her return has been on the cards for some time tbh, now it is official. It is going to be very hard to make the numbers add up for a seasonal service I'm afraid, especially with an ageing fast craft.
Quote from: Stena explorer on May 27, 2015, 02:37:24 PM
Interesting you say there are two company's interested in operating out of Dun laoghaire in 2016' anyone any clues to who they are?. Anyway there is the potential for 250,000 passangers to use the service in the April -September season, for the average motorist, it is not that difficult to get to Dun laoghaire (15 minutes off peak from junction 16 on m50 cherrywood to dunlaoghaire , even a few minutes less if you get a run of the traffic lights ,also with rail and bus station 50 meters away it's very handy for foot passangers, only problem is trying to sinc ferry times in with holyhead rail departures ,but could easily be done , and of course the big one , To Have A very Competive Price. And good advertising and anything is possible. I always felt one of the big problems with the HSS in recent years was ,the cost to travel on it for cars it was always way more expensive to travel on than the normal ferry, and it only operating only one journey each way,giving poor choice..the tourist market is a big chunk of business during the spring ,summer season and can be very profitable for the operators . So interesting times ahead , and it can only be good for competition.
Again, the cost of running a fast craft is going to make it extremely difficult to compete on price and even break even, never mind make a profit. There is a reason they have almost disappeared from Northern European waters. That is before factoring in the reaction of the 2 existing operators as well, who have the security of a year round service (and the bonus of significant revenue from freight operations), and already well established marketing machines and customer bases. As for rail traffic, Holyhead station does not have the services (and capacity on those services) to make a significant additional contribution to passenger numbers and handles less than 250,000 passengers a year - many of which are commuters I believe, rather than ferry connected travellers. Its much quicker, cheaper, and less hassle to jump on a plane anyways than to get a ferry and board a train.
I was told that the Express costs £3000 a crossing in fuel alone. When you consider there are crew costs, shore staff, port fees, daily charter fees etc on top it's hard to see how she could possibly make money even in peak summer.
Quote from: PaddyL on June 06, 2015, 06:27:02 PM
I was told that the Express costs £3000 a crossing in fuel alone. When you consider there are crew costs, shore staff, port fees, daily charter fees etc on top it's hard to see how she could possibly make money even in peak summer.
I've also heard that they may be serving a lot of Salmon and Herring onboard next year....
12 months ago Dun Laoghaire had a car ferry terminal ... now it has a concert venue...
http://www.promsonthepier.ie/location/
They held a circus there after Christmas, I think a fairground is due end of June and they have another concert type event on August bank holiday The Beatyard,. The cruise ferry plans will be submitted to an board plannala by next week , then allow up to 4 months for a decision,most likely by early October..and their decision is final ,no further objections allowed ,that is if they are given the go ahead.my gut feeling is they will get the go ahead.a few against it ,but overall the majority saying give it a go ,it can only help the town. It's like the new liberary a lot of people knocking it..(I know it is a bit of a monstrosity) but over 10,000 people going through its doors every week ,shows it sure is being used.
QuoteAs for rail traffic, Holyhead station does not have the services (and capacity on those services) to make a significant additional contribution to passenger numbers and handles less than 250,000 passengers a year - many of which are commuters I believe, rather than ferry connected travellers. Its much quicker, cheaper, and less hassle to jump on a plane anyways than to get a ferry and board a train.
Holyhead has a spread of rail services across the day averaging one an hour each way so it's usually not a major issue if one misses a train. Measures are being looked at to address the serious capacity issues on the Arriva Trains Wales network.
In fact in the last year two notable improvements have been made to ship-rail connectivity at the port: the introduction of a mid-morning Manchester-Holyhead direct train & lunchtime return. And last month's timetable change saw Virgin Trains introduce a 12.43 Holyhead-London service. These services connect with the late-morning arrivals and early-afternoon departures of the Stena Adventurer & Ulysses.
The coach services between the port and London/Manchester/Leeds have mopped up the lion's share of the overnight foot passenger traffic.
I agree that it is quicker by air for the majority of journeys (except North Wales to Dublin) but not always cheaper or less hassle.
I know someone in one of the major English cities who nearly always flew to Dublin but now nearly always comes via Holyhead. As for cheaper I've found that while the flight itself can be inexpensive for a fair comparison the cost needs to include travelling to/from the airport. That can often make it more costly than taking the ferry and train. Throw some luggage into the equation and the ferry and train wins hands down. Not everyone wants or needs to complete the journey as quickly as possible and have no problem with a few extra hours journey time for a more relaxing journey offering an opportunity to work, relax and eat throughout to the heart of their destination.
I was in dun laoghaire on Saturday for the first time since the hss finished up. I saw site notices posted along th East pier, for the cruise berths plan. Is there here any further news about another potential shipping company running a service from Dun laoghaire ?
Cruise Plan is at consultation plan before it will be considered by An Bord Pleanala. Will probably go to Oral Hearing later in the year with a decision in the Spring. In the meantime, a number of the promised cruise visits to Dublin have instead gone to Dublin Port - no cruise company is anxious to tender passengers to shore when they can dock beside a nice solid quay instead! Ideally, to grow the market there needs to be some form of Joint Venture between Dublin Port and Dun Laoghaire Harbour Company which, if marketed properly, would have the potential to seriously boost visitor numbers.
To (eventually!) answer your question Dee, the 2 operators who have been seriously at the table are still there. I think the Harbour Company will be distinctly anxious to make an announcement early in the Autumn and definitely before the transfer of shareholding to the local authority comes into play later in the year. In the meantime, we got a funfair and two musical festivals will take place there during August. Good to see the place getting use.
Pete
Its ok, Stena may have left but we still have Proms On The Pier, anybody going? ;D
Quote from: DublinPeter on July 22, 2015, 12:15:21 AM
Cruise Plan is at consultation plan before it will be considered by An Bord Pleanala. Will probably go to Oral Hearing later in the year with a decision in the Spring. In the meantime, a number of the promised cruise visits to Dublin have instead gone to Dublin Port - no cruise company is anxious to tender passengers to shore when they can dock beside a nice solid quay instead! Ideally, to grow the market there needs to be some form of Joint Venture between Dublin Port and Dun Laoghaire Harbour Company which, if marketed properly, would have the potential to seriously boost visitor numbers.
To (eventually!) answer your question Dee, the 2 operators who have been seriously at the table are still there. I think the Harbour Company will be distinctly anxious to make an announcement early in the Autumn and definitely before the transfer of shareholding to the local authority comes into play later in the year. In the meantime, we got a funfair and two musical festivals will take place there during August. Good to see the place getting use.
Pete
Meanwhile Dublin Port has got approval from An Bord Pleanala for the ABR project, which will significantly improve access for cruise ships, allowing them to turn in the port as well as opening up the possibility of them docking closer to the city itself. Work could start as early as this October.
http://www.dublinport.ie/news/singlenews/article/an-bord-pleanala-grants-permission-for-the-alexandra-basin-redevelopment-abr-project//2/
Quote from: Steven on July 23, 2015, 12:43:08 AM
Meanwhile Dublin Port has got approval from An Bord Pleanala for the ABR project, which will significantly improve access for cruise ships, allowing them to turn in the port as well as opening up the possibility of them docking closer to the city itself. Work could start as early as this October.
http://www.dublinport.ie/news/singlenews/article/an-bord-pleanala-grants-permission-for-the-alexandra-basin-redevelopment-abr-project//2/
True indeed and good to see that development get the go-ahead too. That's the reason I was suggesting the Joint Venture idea mentioned above. I think there is a very marketable product there under a "Dublin Bay" banner with ships sailing into both ports, each of which have their benefits. Chance to grow the overall market which would be good for everyone. Will be a good few years before the Dublin project is completed too (huge job to basically rebuild North Wall Quay and the whole Alexandra basin infrastructure) so would be good to be building the trade while it is growing so steadily - if given the go ahead Dun Laoghaire could be up and running in 2017.
Pete
Plans for the new cruise jetty were lodged on 3rd July ,it is under strategic infrastructure projects, which should hopefully quicken time for a decision ,hopefully late autumn.All dun laoghaire wants is to get a bit of the growing business in cruises that Dublin gets . I mean who would not love to disembark in dun laoghaire , it is a beautiful location , it is very safe for tourists , fast train service to city is only a very short walk,it is such a fast growing business that I think both destinations can flourish. and as soon as all the knockers of the project ,move on to something else the better . There was a protest back in late May against the cruise liners , and it was a very small protest, as I said I think the majority of people believe in giving it a go ,the town has nothing to lose
Royal Princess, Horizon, Celebrity Silhouette, & Magellan all in Dublin Port today - and thats before any of the planned infrastructure improvements have been made. Dun Laoghaire is going to find it very hard to compete with that capacity, and also to entice those cruise lines away from Dublin Port (assuming Dublin Port don't slip up and do everything right). Why would Dublin Port want to give away some of this very lucrative business to Dun Laoghaire? TBH, they are more concerned with Dublin Port's market than the overall market. The sooner Dun Laoghaire can get their plans into action, the better, else they risk missing the boat so to speak.
I think dun laoghaire would be happy enough to get 2or 3 ships in each week during the season , they will never have the capacity to compete with Dublin port , and if the price is right it's amazing how quickly a company can move location. As I said before Dun laoghaire can't be beaten on its beautiful location . Coming up the entrance to Dublin port with its container depos industrial estates fuel deposetc etc just doesn't have the same impression, so I think marketed well dunlaoghaire should not have a problem getting some ships in once they have the facility's in place.
You're absolutely right Stena Explorer - both in terms of the attractiveness of the port of Dun Laoghaire and its environs as well as the business model being discussed. Dun Laoghaire won't be competing on volume with Dublin Port, it will obviously be taking in less ships but if the market grows as projected, then there is plenty of business for everybody.
The Economic Impact Report for the Dun Laoghaire cruise plan makes for interesting reading as does the planning application for the Alexandra basin project which says that the capacity at a redeveloped Dublin port would be 140 cruise ships per year. Any more than this would impact on the high margin freight traffic. Cruise traffic growth in the next 10 years is expected to run at about 8% which would have about 210 ships per year in the bay by 2030. Both plans assume an average (using peaks and troughs of economics!) growth rate of about 5% every year for the next 30 years.
There are plenty of naysayers out there both locally and further afield but personally I wish both projects the very best. If the market grows at even the medium level then everyone wins here. We're an island nation and a beautiful one at that and we need to make the most of that and be positive in how we plan and invest in it.
Pete
HSS and Lynx infrastructure being removed in Dun Laoghaire
http://dlharbour.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/NtoM-9-of-2016-Dismantling-of-equipmant-at-No-5-berth.pdf
Quote from: giftgrub on May 10, 2016, 08:10:26 PM
HSS and Lynx infrastructure being removed in Dun Laoghaire
http://dlharbour.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/NtoM-9-of-2016-Dismantling-of-equipmant-at-No-5-berth.pdf
Pretty much confirms what many of us expected - Dun Laoghaire's death as a ferry port.
Quote from: Steven on May 11, 2016, 10:55:40 AM
Quote from: giftgrub on May 10, 2016, 08:10:26 PM
HSS and Lynx infrastructure being removed in Dun Laoghaire
http://dlharbour.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/NtoM-9-of-2016-Dismantling-of-equipmant-at-No-5-berth.pdf
Pretty much confirms what many of us expected - Dun Laoghaire's death as a ferry port.
Fat lady is yet to sing there just yet as I've said before. HSS infrastructure was always going to be removed, makes no difference to any future operator. Just the Lynx pontoon that's being removed (was bespoke to the Lynx), ramps etc remain in situ and have recently been serviced. Still painfully slow negotiations about future route (s). It's like a giant game of chicken, nobody wants to jump first!
Pete
Quote from: DublinPeter on May 11, 2016, 04:43:07 PM
Quote from: Steven on May 11, 2016, 10:55:40 AM
Quote from: giftgrub on May 10, 2016, 08:10:26 PM
HSS and Lynx infrastructure being removed in Dun Laoghaire
http://dlharbour.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/NtoM-9-of-2016-Dismantling-of-equipmant-at-No-5-berth.pdf
Pretty much confirms what many of us expected - Dun Laoghaire's death as a ferry port.
Fat lady is yet to sing there just yet as I've said before. HSS infrastructure was always going to be removed, makes no difference to any future operator. Just the Lynx pontoon that's being removed (was bespoke to the Lynx), ramps etc remain in situ and have recently been serviced. Still painfully slow negotiations about future route (s). It's like a giant game of chicken, nobody wants to jump first!
Pete
How do you suggest vehicles are going to board the hypothetical fast craft then? The pontoon should have been compatible with most, if not all InCats. Unlike the HSS the lynx didn't require highly specialised infrastructure. Any operator is going to require a new pontoon, which won't come cheap. Theres also the matter of access to the berth - freight is out of the question due to the need to pass under the terminal. Without being able to take any freight, the economics are going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to make add up. Thats before you even consider the competition! The longer we go on with out a service of course, the less likely it is there will be any. Is there a market for a passenger and car only service? Yes, but its nowhere near the size that it was and already being oversupplied by the existing operators who can also take larger vehicles to balance out the economics of the route. If all parties really wanted to make a deal I suspect it would already have happened. Good luck to Dun Laoghaire of course, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Quote from: Steven on May 11, 2016, 08:55:35 PM
Quote from: DublinPeter on May 11, 2016, 04:43:07 PM
Quote from: Steven on May 11, 2016, 10:55:40 AM
Quote from: giftgrub on May 10, 2016, 08:10:26 PM
HSS and Lynx infrastructure being removed in Dun Laoghaire
http://dlharbour.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/NtoM-9-of-2016-Dismantling-of-equipmant-at-No-5-berth.pdf
Pretty much confirms what many of us expected - Dun Laoghaire's death as a ferry port.
Fat lady is yet to sing there just yet as I've said before. HSS infrastructure was always going to be removed, makes no difference to any future operator. Just the Lynx pontoon that's being removed (was bespoke to the Lynx), ramps etc remain in situ and have recently been serviced. Still painfully slow negotiations about future route (s). It's like a giant game of chicken, nobody wants to jump first!
Pete
How do you suggest vehicles are going to board the hypothetical fast craft then? The pontoon should have been compatible with most, if not all InCats. Unlike the HSS the lynx didn't require highly specialised infrastructure. Any operator is going to require a new pontoon, which won't come cheap. Theres also the matter of access to the berth - freight is out of the question due to the need to pass under the terminal. Without being able to take any freight, the economics are going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to make add up. Thats before you even consider the competition! The longer we go on with out a service of course, the less likely it is there will be any. Is there a market for a passenger and car only service? Yes, but its nowhere near the size that it was and already being oversupplied by the existing operators who can also take larger vehicles to balance out the economics of the route. If all parties really wanted to make a deal I suspect it would already have happened. Good luck to Dun Laoghaire of course, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Such cynicism in one so young Steven! Thankfully, the people working to advance the project don't share the views of the internet ;)
The one point you are completely correct about is when you say that the longer there is no service, the more difficult it becomes. Agree totally and the pace of progress is incredibly and frustratingly slow for all manner of reasons and on all sides.
The pontoon has to go primarily because it belongs to Stena and they wouldn't be keen to leave it there to facilitate a competitor (even a hypothetical one). It's also 23 years old and in need of some serious TLC. Fear not though, there are other pontoons available at reasonable cost as and when one is required. The underpass at DL isn't as small as you think, and realistically any seasonal fastcraft service won't really be competing for heavy freight business in any event (cars, vans, coaches etc would be its bread and butter).
As to whether a seasonal tourist fastcraft service is viable. Well, that's where the chicken comes in! To come back to your post, all parties definitely want to make a deal but everyone is waiting to see what everyone else does. Hang up...no, you hang up.....
Pete
Quote from: DublinPeter on May 11, 2016, 11:01:00 PM
As to whether a seasonal tourist fastcraft service is viable. Well, that's where the chicken comes in! To come back to your post, all parties definitely want to make a deal but everyone is waiting to see what everyone else does. Hang up...no, you hang up.....
Even I've given up on this idea now.
If there was money to be made on the route, the bidding process would have been completed and operations would have begun.
The current set up in Dun Laoire would need a bigger pontoon for the swift,
The pontoon in Holyhead is bigger.
Swift could in fact use a low quayside plinth because Swift has its own ramps unlike the Lynx.
Quote from: IFPete on May 15, 2016, 06:09:15 PM
The current set up in Dun Laoire would need a bigger pontoon for the swift,
The pontoon in Holyhead is bigger.
Swift could in fact use a low quayside plinth because Swift has its own ramps unlike the Lynx.
REALLY? What else would you call those big metal things at the stern of the lynx that they lowered onto the pontoon then? ::)
Quote from: IFPete on May 15, 2016, 06:09:15 PM
The current set up in Dun Laoire would need a bigger pontoon for the swift,
The pontoon in Holyhead is bigger.
Swift could in fact use a low quayside plinth because Swift has its own ramps unlike the Lynx.
True indeed IFPete, the small pontoon suited the Lynx with one rear ramp open OK but wouldn't be big enough for either Swifts rear ramp or her bow ramp (which is the one she has but the Lynx doesn't). For any potential centre-door loading fastcraft, the new pontoon will need to be wider and indeed have a bit of a turn "out" to get vehicles down the ramp and across to the centre entrance of the vessel. There are engineers drawings etc for it in DL as and when it might be required! For now though, it's all about dismantling. Big job to get the HSS stuff taken away, crane has been very busy the last 2 days unloading the barge of all it's cutting gear.
Pete
The two conventional ramps in Dun Laoire are about a third the size of the ramps at Dublin Port,
There is no way swift could use any of these ramps or the current pontoon as described above,
The Lynx installed ramps were more like trays than ramps and were a lot smaller than the express ramp Steven is thinking about.
Regarding the terminal bridge its about 5 metre high, There was never any problem for HGV going under it when St Columba was in operation.
Quote from: ferryfan on March 05, 2015, 12:22:54 PM
Seven Ferry Operators Express Interest to Run Seasonal Dun Laoghaire Service!
Jehan Ashmore on Afloat.ie
http://afloat.ie/port-news/ferry-news/item/28010-seven-ferry-operators-express-interest-to-run-seasonal-dun-laoghaire-service
2 years on and they've narrowed down to 4 potential operators according to Saturday's Irish Times:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/report-raises-issues-about-d%C3%BAn-laoghaire-harbour-ownership-1.2928235
Even I gave up hoping for a revival 12 months ago!
Quote from: Fast Ferry Fan on January 09, 2017, 12:29:55 AM
Quote from: ferryfan on March 05, 2015, 12:22:54 PM
Seven Ferry Operators Express Interest to Run Seasonal Dun Laoghaire Service!
Jehan Ashmore on Afloat.ie
http://afloat.ie/port-news/ferry-news/item/28010-seven-ferry-operators-express-interest-to-run-seasonal-dun-laoghaire-service
2 years on and they've narrowed down to 4 potential operators according to Saturday's Irish Times:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/report-raises-issues-about-d%C3%BAn-laoghaire-harbour-ownership-1.2928235
Even I gave up hoping for a revival 12 months ago!
Every day that passes it becomes a little less likely we will ever see a ferry service from Dun Laoghaire again. Surely its been too long? In any case, there is an assumption here that there may be 4 credible business plans here (after all this time they have only rounded it down to 4?) - assuming we can rule out Stena, who has the resources to not only acquire a suitable craft and operate it but also take on the current operations? That the harbour company seem set on a central corridor fast-craft service limits things further still - perhaps they could entice the IOMSPCo at the right rates for example? As for the once rumoured fast-craft to France, who in their right mind is going to run an InCat or Austal Autoexpress to France? Those things don't do rough seas!
Stuff of dreamers - they have zero future as a ferry port.
Time will tell chaps!
They have a bizzare way of conducting themselves but I reckon they will get there in the end.
Ruling anybody or anything out would be foolish. Even Stena ;)
Pete
Quote from: DublinPeter on January 12, 2017, 10:23:24 PM
Time will tell chaps!
They have a bizzare way of conducting themselves but I reckon they will get there in the end.
Ruling anybody or anything out would be foolish. Even Stena ;)
Pete
What do you think would be viable?
Could Dun Laoghaire re-open whilst Dublin Port is redeveloped?
Quote from: VSFXX on January 14, 2017, 08:53:38 PM
Could Dun Laoghaire re-open whilst Dublin Port is redeveloped?
Using what vessel. Unfortunately Dun Laoghaire is severely restricted with regards to the size of the vessel it can accommodate at present. Swift could work, but thats about it of the current Dublin vessels. In any case, if freight was to return to the port surely the residents of the town would be less than happy given how vocal they have been in the past.
Im afraid I'm inclined to agree with Paddy here. its hard to see what anyone could viably operate and where to!
Crumbs from the Dublin Port table isn't a million miles short of the mark whether that is Cruise and/or Passenger/Fastcraft traffic. Thankfully for them, there is not likely to be a shortage of those crumbs going forward and (business arrangements permitting), that is where the Commercial future lies for DL. Steven is right in that as a port, Dun Laoghaire is quite restricted but it is ideal for certain services but it is perfectly suited for particular types of overflow.
As has been the case for quite a while now, the issue is not with operators (I can vouch for at least 2 as being credible), it is with the political machinations around the Harbours Bill 2015 and who will control the operation of the Harbour. That's likely to take much of 2017 to resolve which is a great pity because minds have eventually come around to the glaringly obvious (commercially speaking!). They really struggle to help themselves sometimes and it can make painful watching.
Pete
Quote from: DublinPeter on January 15, 2017, 07:36:34 PM
Crumbs from the Dublin Port table isn't a million miles short of the mark whether that is Cruise and/or Passenger/Fastcraft traffic. Thankfully for them, there is not likely to be a shortage of those crumbs going forward and (business arrangements permitting), that is where the Commercial future lies for DL. Steven is right in that as a port, Dun Laoghaire is quite restricted but it is ideal for certain services but it is perfectly suited for particular types of overflow.
As has been the case for quite a while now, the issue is not with operators (I can vouch for at least 2 as being credible), it is with the political machinations around the Harbours Bill 2015 and who will control the operation of the Harbour. That's likely to take much of 2017 to resolve which is a great pity because minds have eventually come around to the glaringly obvious (commercially speaking!). They really struggle to help themselves sometimes and it can make painful watching.
Pete
But what sort of service would be viable? I am struggling to see what would be.
Quote from: PaddyL on January 16, 2017, 01:31:41 PM
Quote from: DublinPeter on January 15, 2017, 07:36:34 PM
Crumbs from the Dublin Port table isn't a million miles short of the mark whether that is Cruise and/or Passenger/Fastcraft traffic. Thankfully for them, there is not likely to be a shortage of those crumbs going forward and (business arrangements permitting), that is where the Commercial future lies for DL. Steven is right in that as a port, Dun Laoghaire is quite restricted but it is ideal for certain services but it is perfectly suited for particular types of overflow.
As has been the case for quite a while now, the issue is not with operators (I can vouch for at least 2 as being credible), it is with the political machinations around the Harbours Bill 2015 and who will control the operation of the Harbour. That's likely to take much of 2017 to resolve which is a great pity because minds have eventually come around to the glaringly obvious (commercially speaking!). They really struggle to help themselves sometimes and it can make painful watching.
Pete
But what sort of service would be viable? I am struggling to see what would be.
I just hope my April Fools service to the moon isn't one of the candidates :p.
Quote from: Steven on January 16, 2017, 10:45:10 PM
Quote from: PaddyL on January 16, 2017, 01:31:41 PM
Quote from: DublinPeter on January 15, 2017, 07:36:34 PM
Crumbs from the Dublin Port table isn't a million miles short of the mark whether that is Cruise and/or Passenger/Fastcraft traffic. Thankfully for them, there is not likely to be a shortage of those crumbs going forward and (business arrangements permitting), that is where the Commercial future lies for DL. Steven is right in that as a port, Dun Laoghaire is quite restricted but it is ideal for certain services but it is perfectly suited for particular types of overflow.
As has been the case for quite a while now, the issue is not with operators (I can vouch for at least 2 as being credible), it is with the political machinations around the Harbours Bill 2015 and who will control the operation of the Harbour. That's likely to take much of 2017 to resolve which is a great pity because minds have eventually come around to the glaringly obvious (commercially speaking!). They really struggle to help themselves sometimes and it can make painful watching.
Pete
But what sort of service would be viable? I am struggling to see what would be.
I just hope my April Fools service to the moon isn't one of the candidates :p.
Might be de best hope!
Looks like Dun Laoghaire might be the new home of the Dublin Port Rally this year?
Afloat.ie is reporting rumours of a reinstatement of a ferry service from Dun Laoghaire.
An article on the 19th November stated:
"Insiders say that they are 'very confident' a ferry service can be reintroduced but for now, the new harbour owners, Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council, are tight-lipped in a statement to Afloat.ie about any plans concerning a ferry or its proposed routing"
Can there be something happening?.
Here is the link
https://afloat.ie/port-news/dun-laoghaire-news/item/41150-cruise-service-bid-competes-with-new-tech-hub-plans-for-dun-laoghaire-ferry-terminal
Quote from: A83 on November 23, 2018, 10:19:06 AM
Afloat.ie is reporting rumours of a reinstatement of a ferry service from Dun Laoghaire.
An article on the 19th November stated:
"Insiders say that they are 'very confident' a ferry service can be reintroduced but for now, the new harbour owners, Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council, are tight-lipped in a statement to Afloat.ie about any plans concerning a ferry or its proposed routing"
Can there be something happening?.
It's not a ferry service for a start - it's a small excursion vessel that could potentially call a couple of times a week (I have spoken directly to the man in charge of the venture). Also worth bearing in mind the single vessel they are currently restoring for services from Liverpool to Llandudno Pier was supposed to enter service this year but this has been pushed back until 2020.
Unfortunately there's some somewhat lazy reporting going on!
Edit: the vessel in question is ENDEAVOUR, a former German ferry from the 60's that lay abandoned in Liverpool for a decade and became known as the ghost ship!
Here's a look at the venture.
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/team-transforming-ghost-ship-sail-14330118
Edit 2: just been informed that this vessels last season was in 1994!!!!!