P&O Liverpool Photos

[Steven]

Sorry that was a typo. You are quite right. Superfast X is the smallest of the Stena and Irish Ferries ships at Holyhead. And I have previously stated that on another one of my posts.

What I meant to say was "Stena Superfast X is dwarfed by Stena Adventurer and Ulysses" hence my surprise when Stena didn't send one of the new builds to replace her.

For the record, Superfast X has less capacity than Norbank, Norbay and European Endeavour.

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Stena Superfast X's freight capacity versus that of the P&O vessels is surely irrelevant given the number of crossings she makes versus her P&O counterparts?

The loads I saw were all good. Both vehicle decks full of trailers, few Scania's and trailers. There were about 17 cars on my crossing, only 9 on the way over. It seems to flux. P&O have upgraded both terminals, particularly passenger facilities.

I'd say Seatruck are doing well. I didn't see much sight of losses at P&O. There seemed little space left on either car deck.

Seatruck, I imagine are able to undercut P&O on price. However, I didn't see much visual evidence for a drop in numbers. It took about 30 minutes to get off European Endeavour, because the car deck was full, both on the outbound and return. I think its more a case P&O have reached saturation point and are in effect pushing more clients towards Seatruck.

Wonder how much Seatruck has taken from Stena at Holyhead? I was a little surprised Stena didn't replace Superfast X with a new build. The ship dwarfs Adventurer and Ulysses. Stena are adding about 30% more capacity on Belfast - Cairnryan - not good for Larne.

The figures are showing a drop in traffic for P&O most months, so far down about 6.5% this year.  Last year they were down about 8.5% for the year so it's not a good trend.

Seatruck are now past them as the biggest operator on Liverpool - Dublin.

Stena continue to show growth at Holyhead but have capacity limitations especially with the rather limited Superfast X.

This is also what I have been seeing looking at the numbers.  If anything it is P&O that are falling back on the central corridor rather than gaining.  Question is, will they (and can they) do anything about it?  Regardless if Seatruck are undercutting P&O at present, its not out of the question for a company like P&O to lower their rates.  P&O (or any other operator) do not have an exclusive right to the traffic, this is what competition is all about.  In recent years we have seen both Seatruck and Irish Ferries (with Epsilon) add capacity aimed at P&O's unaccompanied cash cow, and P&O have done little to nothing in response. 

With IF a new build on order which will free up Epsilon if they retain her, and Seatruck having such a flexible fleet (and a history of responding quickly to market changes), I doubt it will be P&O making the next move either.  I wouldn't even rule out the long rumoured prospect of a Stena Line Dublin - Liverpool freight service either given how much growth there has been (depending on how trade between UK&IE is affected in the next couple of years of course).  Once Stena E-flexer 1 & 2 (as I have decided to call them) arrive there are likely to be 2 owned Visentini RoPaxes looking for a new home after all.  While they wouldn't necessarily go to Dublin (surely it makes sense to use one to replace Horizon for example), one or both could free up something else instead!

They still might. I read they have supposedly exercised the option on a fifth new ship from the AVIC shipyard in China.

Also read this.  It will be interesting to see where she ends up.  I and others still aren't convinced all of the first 4 will end up at Belfast either!

[TC]

Are you referring to a Stena freight only service from Dublin to Liverpool? That kind of operation I say could give Seatruck a run for their money, but if you're talking a standard Stena service I don't think it would be successful, particularly given the higher operational costs the latter have over P&O, flagging, crewing costs etc. If P&O are losing custom surely Stena would also struggle? I don't think a Visentini would be all that more efficient than Norbank and Norbay. If Seatruck started a service from Liverpool to Belfast, I'm sure we would see a fall in Stena's numbers.

I think the rebound at Larne has a lot to do with P&O killing Troon and the costly Express. European Highlander and European Causeway are more efficient ships to operate than Superfast VII & VIII, and they have less distance to travel. Hence, I imagine P&O have been able to offer clients better rates, possibly undercutting Stena.

The situation on Liverpool - Dublin is different. You have a competitor, running by far the most efficient ships on the Irish Sea, following similar flagging arrangements, travelling slightly slower than you are, with drastically different ships. P&O have a host of on-board services to provide – Restaurant, Bar, Cabins, Cleaning etc all requiring larger crews. Then you look at the ships, Norbank and Norbay are 17,500 GT and European Endeavour is 24,000 GT. Now look at the Seatruck vessels:- Clipper Point 14,000 GT, Seatruck Progress and Seatruck Power are 19,000 GT. P&O alone must be getting a bigger fuel bill than Seatruck. And add in the on-board services, larger crew, and I can imagine why Seatruck are able to undercut P&O.

Your right in theory Stephen, P&O could well lower their rates, but then they would probably turn the service into a loss making route, undermining P&O Ferries as a whole. I don't know how viable it is, but the latter could convert their ships to LNG to reduce costs, but what's to say Seatruck won't do the same? If P&O had new, ultra efficent vessels, similar to the new Stena vessels comming on stream, I would say they could pull back the freight that has gone to Seatruck.

If P&O were to pull the plug on the Irish Sea operation, I would personally see that as a bad thing as it would leave Irish Ferries, Stena and Seatruck, as the only "competition". I seriously doubt DFDS would bother with the Irish Sea. They showed little, if any interest in the Birkenhead operations, flogging it to Stena shortly after they acquired Norfolk Line. Brittany Ferries are only bothered about the channel and routes to Spain...

[Steven]

Are you referring to a Stena freight only service from Dublin to Liverpool? That kind of operation I say could give Seatruck a run for their money, but if you're talking a standard Stena service I don't think it would be successful, particularly given the higher operational costs the latter have over P&O, flagging, crewing costs etc. If P&O are losing custom surely Stena would also struggle? I don't think a Visentini would be all that more efficient than Norbank and Norbay. If Seatruck started a service from Liverpool to Belfast, I'm sure we would see a fall in Stena's numbers.

I think the rebound at Larne has a lot to do with P&O killing Troon and the costly Express. European Highlander and European Causeway are more efficient ships to operate than Superfast VII & VIII, and they have less distance to travel. Hence, I imagine P&O have been able to offer clients better rates, possibly undercutting Stena.

The situation on Liverpool - Dublin is different. You have a competitor, running by far the most efficient ships on the Irish Sea, following similar flagging arrangements, travelling slightly slower than you are, with drastically different ships. P&O have a host of on-board services to provide – Restaurant, Bar, Cabins, Cleaning etc all requiring larger crews. Then you look at the ships, Norbank and Norbay are 17,500 GT and European Endeavour is 24,000 GT. Now look at the Seatruck vessels:- Clipper Point 14,000 GT, Seatruck Progress and Seatruck Power are 19,000 GT. P&O alone must be getting a bigger fuel bill than Seatruck. And add in the on-board services, larger crew, and I can imagine why Seatruck are able to undercut P&O.

Your right in theory Stephen, P&O could well lower their rates, but then they would probably turn the service into a loss making route, undermining P&O Ferries as a whole. I don't know how viable it is, but the latter could convert their ships to LNG to reduce costs, but what's to say Seatruck won't do the same? If P&O had new, ultra efficent vessels, similar to the new Stena vessels comming on stream, I would say they could pull back the freight that has gone to Seatruck.

If P&O were to pull the plug on the Irish Sea operation, I would personally see that as a bad thing as it would leave Irish Ferries, Stena and Seatruck, as the only "competition". I seriously doubt DFDS would bother with the Irish Sea. They showed little, if any interest in the Birkenhead operations, flogging it to Stena shortly after they acquired Norfolk Line. Brittany Ferries are only bothered about the channel and routes to Spain...

I sincerely doubt the accountants at P&O have any intention of converting either Norbay or Norbank to LNG!  It would be very difficult to justify the cost given the limited time for payback on ageing vessels.  Likewise with Seatruck, with efficient vessels running at reduced speed fitting scrubbers or running on MGO is probably more cost effective for the foreseeable future.  Especially considering how much LNG infrastructure there is on the Irish Sea!

If Seatruck are able to undercut P&O then surely that is P&O's fault? After all, it is they who chose not to invest in newer more efficient tonnage and to operate ships with passenger facilities.  It is no secret that the racehorse class don't exactly sip fuel.  Likewise Norbay and Norbank are ageing vessels with older engines and less optimised hull forms.  For all their faults the Visentini class are famously efficient, though it wouldn't necessarily be a vessel of that class in any case.  Stena have a few freight vessels that have long been paid for which could be used to test the water.  I'm not familiar with the complexities of the labour arrangements with Stena at Dublin Port, but I'd imagine any new route would not have to be crewed by mainly UK&IE crew either.   That Stena already have operations in both Dublin and Birkenhead can only reduce costs of a theoretical Dublin to Birkenhead service further.  As for taking passengers, the real growth in the industry is largely through unaccompanied traffic.  Trailers don't care whether they can get a Cafe Latte and a fry up during the crossing or not ;).

As for DFDS not being interested in the Irish Sea, things change.  The takeover at Norfolk Line came at the wrong time for the Irish Sea operation and when DFDS needed to concentrate their energies elsewhere.  A company like DFDS is interested in any market where there is money to be made.  Hence their (and others) expansion in warehousing and logistics on the island in recent years.  DFDS have made no secret of the fact that they are looking for acquisitions either.