is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare

Started by market knowledge, January 01, 2017, 12:18:31 PM

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NathanBrady

Quote from: TC on January 18, 2017, 09:55:48 PM
Not sure about locks and personally don't know much about Bristol, but given Seatruck's decision to start an operation to the port, I imagine this is being monitored by the competition.

Regarding a vessel, I imagine a vessel like Norbank or Isle of Innisfree would be best suited on a Cork / Rosslare - Bristol operation. 

I think a Fastnet Line made a big mistake when they chose M.V. Julia to launch the service. Mainly because of size, running costs and lack of freight capacity. P&O also made this mistake when operating the Portsmouth - Bilbao route. I don't think anyone could complain Pride of Bilbao wasn't a nice ship, it's just the vessel lacked freight capacity and cost a fortune to run, particularly from a fuel consumption perspective.
Bit of a difference between Norbank and Inissfree!

TC

Quote from: NathanBrady on January 19, 2017, 07:30:22 AM
Quote from: TC on January 18, 2017, 09:55:48 PM
Not sure about locks and personally don't know much about Bristol, but given Seatruck's decision to start an operation to the port, I imagine this is being monitored by the competition.

Regarding a vessel, I imagine a vessel like Norbank or Isle of Innisfree would be best suited on a Cork / Rosslare - Bristol operation. 

I think a Fastnet Line made a big mistake when they chose M.V. Julia to launch the service. Mainly because of size, running costs and lack of freight capacity. P&O also made this mistake when operating the Portsmouth - Bilbao route. I don't think anyone could complain Pride of Bilbao wasn't a nice ship, it's just the vessel lacked freight capacity and cost a fortune to run, particularly from a fuel consumption perspective.
Bit of a difference between Norbank and Inissfree!

True, but they are from the same vintage, built by the same yard and share more or less the same stern and other characteristics. Norbank, though she has small enough passenger facilities does have more freight capacity than Isle of Innisfree.

All I'm driving at is, if any long haul service is going to be profitable and sustainable, the operator needs a "lean, clean, shipping machine".

Matt73

Quote from: TC on January 19, 2017, 08:27:34 PM
Quote from: NathanBrady on January 19, 2017, 07:30:22 AM
Quote from: TC on January 18, 2017, 09:55:48 PM
Not sure about locks and personally don't know much about Bristol, but given Seatruck's decision to start an operation to the port, I imagine this is being monitored by the competition.

Regarding a vessel, I imagine a vessel like Norbank or Isle of Innisfree would be best suited on a Cork / Rosslare - Bristol operation. 

I think a Fastnet Line made a big mistake when they chose M.V. Julia to launch the service. Mainly because of size, running costs and lack of freight capacity. P&O also made this mistake when operating the Portsmouth - Bilbao route. I don't think anyone could complain Pride of Bilbao wasn't a nice ship, it's just the vessel lacked freight capacity and cost a fortune to run, particularly from a fuel consumption perspective.
Bit of a difference between Norbank and Inissfree!

True, but they are from the same vintage, built by the same yard and share more or less the same stern and other characteristics. Norbank, though she has small enough passenger facilities does have more freight capacity than Isle of Innisfree.

All I'm driving at is, if any long haul service is going to be profitable and sustainable, the operator needs a "lean, clean, shipping machine".

Thanks to all for your replies on this one.  Very interesting about Swansea and also ABP wanting to move the ro/ro berth to Port Talbot.

Re whether there is enough traffic to justify such a route, I would cite the Killingholme-Hook of Holland route.  If you read the Stena Line history, the now late Pim de Lange (ran Hook of Holland for many years and died only a few years after he retired) was quoted as saying that the Stena Line Board were convined that a new route would take business from Harwich.  Pim de Lange commissioned Hull University to do an economic study and it showed that it would actually generate new business for the company.  We all know what happened next and it is now a major money maker for Stena and on its third generation of ships. 

Given that Cork and Bristol are large cities with major infrastructure, would a new route generate new business and soak up the exisiting business from south Wales to Rosslare? 

With regard to the lock gates, that's why I wondered whether a ro/ro berth could be built in the river as they did at Hull for the Europort ships. 

I promise not to raise Bristol to Cork again!

Thanks.

Matt

Steven

Quote from: Matt73 on January 21, 2017, 06:56:07 PM
Quote from: TC on January 19, 2017, 08:27:34 PM
Quote from: NathanBrady on January 19, 2017, 07:30:22 AM
Quote from: TC on January 18, 2017, 09:55:48 PM
Not sure about locks and personally don't know much about Bristol, but given Seatruck's decision to start an operation to the port, I imagine this is being monitored by the competition.

Regarding a vessel, I imagine a vessel like Norbank or Isle of Innisfree would be best suited on a Cork / Rosslare - Bristol operation. 

I think a Fastnet Line made a big mistake when they chose M.V. Julia to launch the service. Mainly because of size, running costs and lack of freight capacity. P&O also made this mistake when operating the Portsmouth - Bilbao route. I don't think anyone could complain Pride of Bilbao wasn't a nice ship, it's just the vessel lacked freight capacity and cost a fortune to run, particularly from a fuel consumption perspective.
Bit of a difference between Norbank and Inissfree!

True, but they are from the same vintage, built by the same yard and share more or less the same stern and other characteristics. Norbank, though she has small enough passenger facilities does have more freight capacity than Isle of Innisfree.

All I'm driving at is, if any long haul service is going to be profitable and sustainable, the operator needs a "lean, clean, shipping machine".

Thanks to all for your replies on this one.  Very interesting about Swansea and also ABP wanting to move the ro/ro berth to Port Talbot.

Re whether there is enough traffic to justify such a route, I would cite the Killingholme-Hook of Holland route.  If you read the Stena Line history, the now late Pim de Lange (ran Hook of Holland for many years and died only a few years after he retired) was quoted as saying that the Stena Line Board were convined that a new route would take business from Harwich.  Pim de Lange commissioned Hull University to do an economic study and it showed that it would actually generate new business for the company.  We all know what happened next and it is now a major money maker for Stena and on its third generation of ships. 

Given that Cork and Bristol are large cities with major infrastructure, would a new route generate new business and soak up the exisiting business from south Wales to Rosslare? 

With regard to the lock gates, that's why I wondered whether a ro/ro berth could be built in the river as they did at Hull for the Europort ships. 

I promise not to raise Bristol to Cork again!

Thanks.

Matt
With all due respect, I think its a bit of a stretch to call Cork a 'large' city.  As a county and city combined, Cork has a population of just over half a million (less than a quarter of which live in the city itself). Compare that to Dublin, with just over 1.9m living in the county and 1.34m in the urban area. 

Your example of Pim de Laange is comparing apples to oranges.  The situation in the humber is/was much different to that in the south of Ireland, especially at the time the Kilingholme route was established as Roro to the continent really took off.  Bear in mind that the Yorkshire and Humber region has a population well in excess of 5m people - more than the entire population of Ireland.  There are also some seriously big distribution centres in the region, as anyone who has driven along the M62 will tell you (speaking of which, the humber is directly connected to the west coast (Liverpool and Holyhead) by the M62)!   Theres also Rotterdam to factor in - one of the busiest ports in the world, neither Cork or Bristol are anywhere close.  In short, Killingholme connects Rotterdam directly to a large population centre (and the required distribution networks to service that population and beyond) whereas Cork potentially just creates a longer journey than using the already well established alternatives that are closer to the majority of the population.
Steve in Belfast (suburbia)

Flickr: www.flickr.com/tarbyonline

PaddyL

Freight on the whole island of Ireland is gravitating towards Dublin.

Cork has a huge problem in that it has virtually no roro freight at the moment which is a vicious cycle as it puts hauliers off using any potential service as it lacks a hub effect or back-up if a sailing is cancelled.

Steven

Quote from: PaddyL on January 26, 2017, 10:02:59 PM
Freight on the whole island of Ireland is gravitating towards Dublin.
Another very important point. 
Steve in Belfast (suburbia)

Flickr: www.flickr.com/tarbyonline

Matt73

Quote from: Steven on January 27, 2017, 08:40:52 PM
Quote from: PaddyL on January 26, 2017, 10:02:59 PM
Freight on the whole island of Ireland is gravitating towards Dublin.
Another very important point.

Steven and all,

Many, many thanks for your responses. 

I realise now that I was indeed comparing apples with oranges, Steven, and will not raise Bristol-Cork again!

Thanks again.

Matt

Steven

Quote from: Matt73 on February 06, 2017, 05:27:42 PM
Quote from: Steven on January 27, 2017, 08:40:52 PM
Quote from: PaddyL on January 26, 2017, 10:02:59 PM
Freight on the whole island of Ireland is gravitating towards Dublin.
Another very important point.

Steven and all,

Many, many thanks for your responses. 

I realise now that I was indeed comparing apples with oranges, Steven, and will not raise Bristol-Cork again!

Thanks again.

Matt
No worries Matt.  We'd all like to see a bit more variety in the services offered I'm sure.  As I said before, perhaps a roro service would be viable to at least get things going (in the right market conditions), but as Paddy says the lack of any existing operator makes that all the harder to get going.
Steve in Belfast (suburbia)

Flickr: www.flickr.com/tarbyonline

Niall

Regarding the future of Rosslare it is my view once it's properly managed with a port masterplan to bring it up to 21 century standards the port will boom. It is vital that a the France services be maintained and developed. Stena are committed long term to Rosslare so that's a good thing. I am sure Irish Ferries will want to keep a strong presence at the port as well. One thing I'd like to see are the wales services streamlined.

corkbuoy

What is it with the same few on this site that like to dumb down the Port of Cork over the years?

Steven

Quote from: corkbuoy on February 09, 2017, 06:32:39 PM
What is it with the same few on this site that like to dumb down the Port of Cork over the years?
I'm at risk of sounding rather harsh here, but it's called being objective. 

Either the demand to sustain a viable service is there or it isn't, at the present time indications are it isn't, and more so by the day as the shift towards Dublin continues.  We'd all love to see a thriving ferry service on our doorstep, but the realities of the world mean that isn't going to happen.  Ask the people of Dun Laoghaire or Larne for example.  It wasn't so long ago that Larne was the busiest ferry port on the whole of the island of Ireland and Dun Laoghaire was Ireland's gateway to the UK!  Dun Laoghaire no longer has any ferry service, and Larne is a shadow of its former self with 2 ships operating to Cairnryan. 
Steve in Belfast (suburbia)

Flickr: www.flickr.com/tarbyonline

corkbuoy

Quote from: Steven on February 10, 2017, 04:33:46 AM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 09, 2017, 06:32:39 PM
What is it with the same few on this site that like to dumb down the Port of Cork over the years?
I'm at risk of sounding rather harsh here, but it's called being objective. 

Either the demand to sustain a viable service is there or it isn't, at the present time indications are it isn't, and more so by the day as the shift towards Dublin continues.  We'd all love to see a thriving ferry service on our doorstep, but the realities of the world mean that isn't going to happen.  Ask the people of Dun Laoghaire or Larne for example.  It wasn't so long ago that Larne was the busiest ferry port on the whole of the island of Ireland and Dun Laoghaire was Ireland's gateway to the UK!  Dun Laoghaire no longer has any ferry service, and Larne is a shadow of its former self with 2 ships operating to Cairnryan.

In all fairness Steven, that reads like objective to bias to me.

Kieran

Quote from: corkbuoy on February 09, 2017, 06:32:39 PM
What is it with the same few on this site that like to dumb down the Port of Cork over the years?

Dumbing down is a bit harsh, and as a Cork I won't have it!

The site was one of the places that heavily supported Bring back the Swansea Cork Ferry (and Fastent Line). The reality is there are various disadvantages to Cork - UK routes that people have highlighted.

corkbuoy

Quote from: Kieran on February 11, 2017, 08:27:50 PM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 09, 2017, 06:32:39 PM
What is it with the same few on this site that like to dumb down the Port of Cork over the years?

Dumbing down is a bit harsh, and as a Cork I won't have it!

The site was one of the places that heavily supported Bring back the Swansea Cork Ferry (and Fastent Line). The reality is there are various disadvantages to Cork - UK routes that people have highlighted.

I'm not referring to this sites support for past cork-uk ferry lines, it's about since that route has ceased.

Constant negativity regarding the viability of a renewed ferry service.

This idea of "various disadvantages to Cork-UK" idea is over-blown by some on here.

I should go over old ground here again about complaints of state aid to the eu & of predatory pricing by other operators but this seems to be a side-story or non-story in most relevant discussions here.

Who are these experts that give their opinions on here?

I too am a Corkonian, living & working in Cork and will always stand up to anyone who thinks it's ok to denigrate our achievements, qualities & ambitions.




Niall

A major problem with Swansea was with tidal restrictions. Transport links to Ringaskiddy are pretty limited also.