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Irish Ferries Enthusiasts => The News Board => Topic started by: market knowledge on January 01, 2017, 12:18:31 PM

Title: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: market knowledge on January 01, 2017, 12:18:31 PM
do either Pembroke or fishguard routes make a profit
it has become a fringe corridor for some time now
is it time to accept that is exactly what it is and provide a single quality ship operated jointly
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Matt73 on January 02, 2017, 10:52:27 PM
Quote from: market knowledge on January 01, 2017, 12:18:31 PM
do either Pembroke or fishguard routes make a profit
it has become a fringe corridor for some time now
is it time to accept that is exactly what it is and provide a single quality ship operated jointly

With regard to the thread about the re-development of Fishguard harbour; it's interesting that the developers are prioritising the marina and commerical developments over the ferry port.  If Stena really believed in the future of the route, wouldn't the ferry terminal be the first priority?

Stena and Irish Ferries' predecssors, Sealink and B&I, tried a joint venture in the late 1980s focussing on the old St Brendan (ex Stena Normanidca) which was painted in a hideous joint livery.  Like many of the Sea Containers Sealink era joint ventures, it foundered very quickly and B&I went back to running from Pembroke. 

I too would like to know whether Stena actually make profit on the Rosslare route.  I very much doubt it and it doesn't conform to their policy of operating in and out of major population centres.  In his memoir, James Sherwood (founder of Sea Containers) remarked that he sold Sealink to Stena without them looking at the books and he was amazed they took Fishguard-Rosslare as it was making a loss then.  I suspect that the Felicity and Koningin Beatrix years helped turn it around. Can anybody fill in the blanks please?

We debated on here about four years ago a possible new route from Bristol to Cork, both major population centres with excellent road and rail links, unlike Fishguard and Rosslare; I believe the roads to/from Pembroke are now better.  Cork is in receipt of €1 billion EU regional development funding to modernise and develop the port including new ro/ro and cruise terminal facilities.  I don't know much about the port facilities at Bristol, except that both harbours have to be reached through locks, and that Ugland auto carriers have a big trade car terminal at one of them. Portbury? Would the lock be detrimental to the operation of a ferry service?  Could a ro/ro berth be built outside the lock on the Severn, a bit like P&O did at Hull when the Pride of Hull/Rotterdam were built? 

The cynic in me says that Stena are waiting for the commercial and marina re-development of Fishguard to begin in earnest.  I think there is a also a large wind farm to be constructed at sea near to Fishguard.  The current ferry berth would be an ideal place to maintain the turbines when it is operational.  Once the future of the port is assured they can then withdraw and open a new route.  If they could leave Larne and shut down Stranraer, I see no reason why they would not pull the plug on Fishguard and Rosslare.  Were they to do so, I suspect they would move the Rosslare-Cherbourg service to Cork as well; a saving on fuel costs too. 

Incidentally, does anybody know what is happening at Stranraer?  It's now six years since it closed. 

Just where this would leave Irish Ferries is a moot point.  Is their service making a profit? 

I can't recall the last time Stena was part of a joint venture, aside from the Harwich-Hook route in 1989-90, when the had just purchased SMZ and were bidding to takeover Sea Containers.  Wouldn't they want to keep all of thea action to themselves?

Looking forward to the debate on this one.  The southern corridor is by far the weakest link on the Irish Sea.  It's high time it was sorted out and fortune favours the bold!

Matt

Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Niall on January 02, 2017, 11:12:56 PM
Matt you should post your query on https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ferriesirish/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ferriesirish/) where you can get a quick and detailed reply from members.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: giftgrub on January 02, 2017, 11:34:32 PM
Just a couple of things to remember, the M50 is reaching capacity in Dublin and during rush hour resembles a car park rather than motorway and the continued thinking that all routes must lead to Dublin could be a foolhardy decision, the southern corridor could be a very handy alternative for any traffic that needs to go south of Dublin for the future.

Investment in roads - making Southern Corridor more accessible

Motorway from Wexford to Dublin under construction

New Ross bypass under construction



Both shipping companies seem quite happy to run their respective operations and continue to invest in their respective offerings.


With regards to Sealink days and Sea Containers takeover, In 1992 the Fishguard Rosslare route was the second most profitable route in the combined Stena / Sealink company with Gothenburg Fredrickshaven first. ( source Stena Line The Story of a Ferry Company - page 243).

I doubt there will be any change in the next few years and with impact of Brexit we might even see Duty Free return to the Irish Sea !
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: hhvferry on January 03, 2017, 12:16:15 AM
Do Stena view Fishguard-Rosslare as a route in its own right which has to make a profit or do they view the Irish market as one - with them, as market leaders, covering every sector offering a complete suite of alternative routes and crossings for hauliers to choose from? If the latter, there could be very good strategic reasons to keep Fishguard open even if the profitability is low or non-existant (and with the age of the Stena Europe the capital cost involved in the route is minimal, albeit operational costs will be higher than using a newer ship). In Scandinavia the Grenaa-Varberg route is by repute kept open as a spoiler just so that no-one else ever again dares to come close to entering the market in competition on Stena's home turf.

Stena have been involved in quite a few joint ventures, not least P&O Stena Line but also as owners of the Swedish part of Scandlines until it all got absorbed into mainstream Stena Line. They even managed to go into a joint venture with themselves when HH Ferries and Scandlines, which had been operating in competition despite being owned by different branches of the Stena group, came together a couple of years back. Then there have been myriad one or two-ship operations, such as Stena Daea Line, Stena SeaLine and, a few years back, Stena Tor Line.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Steven on January 03, 2017, 07:10:16 AM
Quote from: hhvferry on January 03, 2017, 12:16:15 AM
Do Stena view Fishguard-Rosslare as a route in its own right which has to make a profit or do they view the Irish market as one - with them, as market leaders, covering every sector offering a complete suite of alternative routes and crossings for hauliers to choose from? If the latter, there could be very good strategic reasons to keep Fishguard open even if the profitability is low or non-existant (and with the age of the Stena Europe the capital cost involved in the route is minimal, albeit operational costs will be higher than using a newer ship). In Scandinavia the Grenaa-Varberg route is by repute kept open as a spoiler just so that no-one else ever again dares to come close to entering the market in competition on Stena's home turf.

Stena have been involved in quite a few joint ventures, not least P&O Stena Line but also as owners of the Swedish part of Scandlines until it all got absorbed into mainstream Stena Line. They even managed to go into a joint venture with themselves when HH Ferries and Scandlines, which had been operating in competition despite being owned by different branches of the Stena group, came together a couple of years back. Then there have been myriad one or two-ship operations, such as Stena Daea Line, Stena SeaLine and, a few years back, Stena Tor Line.

Think you hit the nail on the head here.  Keeping the route open is a strategic move.  Some of the loads carried are abysmal, but it isn't all plain sailing for Irish Ferries either.  It will be interesting to see how things develop with Fishguard, but Pembroke dock isn't exactly ideal either from what I understand.

Stena are no strangers to joint ventures, but in order to form a joint venture you need two willing parties! 
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: PaddyL on January 03, 2017, 08:13:09 PM
Quote from: Niall on January 02, 2017, 11:12:56 PM
Matt you should post your query on https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ferriesirish/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ferriesirish/) where you can get a quick and detailed reply from members.

Only if you want poor quality replies and a healthy dose of xenophobia.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Matt73 on January 04, 2017, 11:11:09 PM
Quote from: Steven on January 03, 2017, 07:10:16 AM
Quote from: hhvferry on January 03, 2017, 12:16:15 AM
Do Stena view Fishguard-Rosslare as a route in its own right which has to make a profit or do they view the Irish market as one - with them, as market leaders, covering every sector offering a complete suite of alternative routes and crossings for hauliers to choose from? If the latter, there could be very good strategic reasons to keep Fishguard open even if the profitability is low or non-existant (and with the age of the Stena Europe the capital cost involved in the route is minimal, albeit operational costs will be higher than using a newer ship). In Scandinavia the Grenaa-Varberg route is by repute kept open as a spoiler just so that no-one else ever again dares to come close to entering the market in competition on Stena's home turf.

Stena have been involved in quite a few joint ventures, not least P&O Stena Line but also as owners of the Swedish part of Scandlines until it all got absorbed into mainstream Stena Line. They even managed to go into a joint venture with themselves when HH Ferries and Scandlines, which had been operating in competition despite being owned by different branches of the Stena group, came together a couple of years back. Then there have been myriad one or two-ship operations, such as Stena Daea Line, Stena SeaLine and, a few years back, Stena Tor Line.

Think you hit the nail on the head here.  Keeping the route open is a strategic move.  Some of the loads carried are abysmal, but it isn't all plain sailing for Irish Ferries either.  It will be interesting to see how things develop with Fishguard, but Pembroke dock isn't exactly ideal either from what I understand.

Stena are no strangers to joint ventures, but in order to form a joint venture you need two willing parties!

Thanks all for the responses and for the information, especially for reminding me about Fishguard being the second most profitable route in 1992!  Also to Steven about the joint ventures. 

Whilst I understand all of your points, nobody addressed specifically whether a route from Bristol to Cork is possible with the state of the market as it currently stands, even with Fishguard remaining open. Both Bristol docks are currently accessible by locks.  Would they make it less attractive, or could a berth be built on the river?  I know the Severn has very strong tidal currents, which might prohibit such a move.

I recall discussion on this forum in the past about Stena looking at moving to Pembroke, but ruling it out because of the lack of additional ro/ro facilities.  I also recall mention of Swansea, but this was ruled out due to the size of the harbour and the road connections to the port.

Sorry, I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about Bristol-Cork at the moment.  Apologies for being a bore!

Thanks.

Matt
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Matt73 on January 04, 2017, 11:13:28 PM
Quote from: PaddyL on January 03, 2017, 08:13:09 PM
Quote from: Niall on January 02, 2017, 11:12:56 PM
Matt you should post your query on https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ferriesirish/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ferriesirish/) where you can get a quick and detailed reply from members.

Only if you want poor quality replies and a healthy dose of xenophobia.

I am a member of one Facebook group about Irish Sea ferries, but only for the pictures that are posted.  I have always been impressed by the quality of postings on this forum, the courtesy with which views are expressed and the level of detail that some members have.   

Thanks.

Matt
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Kieran on January 17, 2017, 09:43:57 AM
Quote from: Niall on January 02, 2017, 11:12:56 PM
Matt you should post your query on https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ferriesirish/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ferriesirish/) where you can get a quick and detailed reply from members.
Admin noteI've always felt this forum is a better place than Facebook groups. Everything is public, not hidden.


Quote from: Matt73 on January 04, 2017, 11:11:09 PM
Whilst I understand all of your points, nobody addressed specifically whether a route from Bristol to Cork is possible with the state of the market as it currently stands, even with Fishguard remaining open. Both Bristol docks are currently accessible by locks.  Would they make it less attractive, or could a berth be built on the river?  I know the Severn has very strong tidal currents, which might prohibit such a move.

I recall discussion on this forum in the past about Stena looking at moving to Pembroke, but ruling it out because of the lack of additional ro/ro facilities.  I also recall mention of Swansea, but this was ruled out due to the size of the harbour and the road connections to the port.
It's not half as bad as the bee in other organisations bonnets about Swansea! When Fastnet Line was being set up, this is something I raised. From what I understand, the market research then was mainly Cork Swansea, with incentives from both ports to open a route. ABP have been talking for 20 years at least about moving the ro-ro berth to Port Talbot.
Bristol was looked at a then, but the berth situation was a problem at the time. The crossing time would also be an issue 214 nautical miles (at 18kts, that would take 12 hours as opposed to 166 to Swansea which takes 9ish).
In reality a new feasibility study would have to be done to work out if it's viable...
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Steven on January 17, 2017, 11:11:09 AM
The Bristol thing has been discussed in some depth on the forum previously. As Kieran says, the distance is a problem.  Especially considering that there isn't that much of an advantage for potential customers to offset the inevitably higher fares resulting from the higher costs.  Perhaps an unaccompanied freight service could work, but are the volumes there on the southern corridor to sustain another route?  From a passenger perspective, they'd have a choice of either 12 hours on a ferry or an hour on a direct flight - I know the option I would take!!!  I doubt any operators will be making major investments port infrastructure unless it needs replaced until the economic situation of both the UK and EU is more certain in any case.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Steven on January 17, 2017, 09:02:40 PM
Quote from: Kieran on January 17, 2017, 09:43:57 AM
Quote from: Niall on January 02, 2017, 11:12:56 PM
Matt you should post your query on https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ferriesirish/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ferriesirish/) where you can get a quick and detailed reply from members.
Admin noteI've always felt this forum is a better place than Facebook groups. Everything is public, not hidden
Agreed.  Unless Facebook groups are very tightly controlled the quality of discussion can be very poor as well.  Yes, you may get less replies on here, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.  The big issue many have with Facebook is how quickly something someone dreamed up can become 'fact'. 
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: PaddyL on January 17, 2017, 10:03:24 PM
Quote from: Steven on January 17, 2017, 11:11:09 AM
The Bristol thing has been discussed in some depth on the forum previously. As Kieran says, the distance is a problem.  Especially considering that there isn't that much of an advantage for potential customers to offset the inevitably higher fares resulting from the higher costs.  Perhaps an unaccompanied freight service could work, but are the volumes there on the southern corridor to sustain another route?  From a passenger perspective, they'd have a choice of either 12 hours on a ferry or an hour on a direct flight - I know the option I would take!!!  I doubt any operators will be making major investments port infrastructure unless it needs replaced until the economic situation of both the UK and EU is more certain in any case.

The biggest issue faced on a longer crossing such as Cork - Swansea is that passengers can have false expectations of fares.  With cabins it will always be more expensive than say the Rosslare routes but you are getting a night's accommodation too.  Impossible to solve unless the public is willing to pay more.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: A83 on January 18, 2017, 08:51:48 PM
As I understand it Portbury [Bristol's main dock] is accessed through lock gates as there is a 42 foot? difference between high and low tide. This raises the question [to which I do not have an answer] is it possible to access the lock gates from the  Bristol Channel even at low tide and therefore is it possible to run a scheduled service into the port?
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: TC on January 18, 2017, 09:55:48 PM
Not sure about locks and personally don't know much about Bristol, but given Seatruck's decision to start an operation to the port, I imagine this is being monitored by the competition.

Regarding a vessel, I imagine a vessel like Norbank or Isle of Innisfree would be best suited on a Cork / Rosslare - Bristol operation. 

I think a Fastnet Line made a big mistake when they chose M.V. Julia to launch the service. Mainly because of size, running costs and lack of freight capacity. P&O also made this mistake when operating the Portsmouth - Bilbao route. I don't think anyone could complain Pride of Bilbao wasn't a nice ship, it's just the vessel lacked freight capacity and cost a fortune to run, particularly from a fuel consumption perspective.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: NathanBrady on January 19, 2017, 07:30:22 AM
Quote from: TC on January 18, 2017, 09:55:48 PM
Not sure about locks and personally don't know much about Bristol, but given Seatruck's decision to start an operation to the port, I imagine this is being monitored by the competition.

Regarding a vessel, I imagine a vessel like Norbank or Isle of Innisfree would be best suited on a Cork / Rosslare - Bristol operation. 

I think a Fastnet Line made a big mistake when they chose M.V. Julia to launch the service. Mainly because of size, running costs and lack of freight capacity. P&O also made this mistake when operating the Portsmouth - Bilbao route. I don't think anyone could complain Pride of Bilbao wasn't a nice ship, it's just the vessel lacked freight capacity and cost a fortune to run, particularly from a fuel consumption perspective.
Bit of a difference between Norbank and Inissfree!
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: TC on January 19, 2017, 08:27:34 PM
Quote from: NathanBrady on January 19, 2017, 07:30:22 AM
Quote from: TC on January 18, 2017, 09:55:48 PM
Not sure about locks and personally don't know much about Bristol, but given Seatruck's decision to start an operation to the port, I imagine this is being monitored by the competition.

Regarding a vessel, I imagine a vessel like Norbank or Isle of Innisfree would be best suited on a Cork / Rosslare - Bristol operation. 

I think a Fastnet Line made a big mistake when they chose M.V. Julia to launch the service. Mainly because of size, running costs and lack of freight capacity. P&O also made this mistake when operating the Portsmouth - Bilbao route. I don't think anyone could complain Pride of Bilbao wasn't a nice ship, it's just the vessel lacked freight capacity and cost a fortune to run, particularly from a fuel consumption perspective.
Bit of a difference between Norbank and Inissfree!

True, but they are from the same vintage, built by the same yard and share more or less the same stern and other characteristics. Norbank, though she has small enough passenger facilities does have more freight capacity than Isle of Innisfree.

All I'm driving at is, if any long haul service is going to be profitable and sustainable, the operator needs a "lean, clean, shipping machine".
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Matt73 on January 21, 2017, 06:56:07 PM
Quote from: TC on January 19, 2017, 08:27:34 PM
Quote from: NathanBrady on January 19, 2017, 07:30:22 AM
Quote from: TC on January 18, 2017, 09:55:48 PM
Not sure about locks and personally don't know much about Bristol, but given Seatruck's decision to start an operation to the port, I imagine this is being monitored by the competition.

Regarding a vessel, I imagine a vessel like Norbank or Isle of Innisfree would be best suited on a Cork / Rosslare - Bristol operation. 

I think a Fastnet Line made a big mistake when they chose M.V. Julia to launch the service. Mainly because of size, running costs and lack of freight capacity. P&O also made this mistake when operating the Portsmouth - Bilbao route. I don't think anyone could complain Pride of Bilbao wasn't a nice ship, it's just the vessel lacked freight capacity and cost a fortune to run, particularly from a fuel consumption perspective.
Bit of a difference between Norbank and Inissfree!

True, but they are from the same vintage, built by the same yard and share more or less the same stern and other characteristics. Norbank, though she has small enough passenger facilities does have more freight capacity than Isle of Innisfree.

All I'm driving at is, if any long haul service is going to be profitable and sustainable, the operator needs a "lean, clean, shipping machine".

Thanks to all for your replies on this one.  Very interesting about Swansea and also ABP wanting to move the ro/ro berth to Port Talbot.

Re whether there is enough traffic to justify such a route, I would cite the Killingholme-Hook of Holland route.  If you read the Stena Line history, the now late Pim de Lange (ran Hook of Holland for many years and died only a few years after he retired) was quoted as saying that the Stena Line Board were convined that a new route would take business from Harwich.  Pim de Lange commissioned Hull University to do an economic study and it showed that it would actually generate new business for the company.  We all know what happened next and it is now a major money maker for Stena and on its third generation of ships. 

Given that Cork and Bristol are large cities with major infrastructure, would a new route generate new business and soak up the exisiting business from south Wales to Rosslare? 

With regard to the lock gates, that's why I wondered whether a ro/ro berth could be built in the river as they did at Hull for the Europort ships. 

I promise not to raise Bristol to Cork again!

Thanks.

Matt
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Steven on January 26, 2017, 12:14:15 AM
Quote from: Matt73 on January 21, 2017, 06:56:07 PM
Quote from: TC on January 19, 2017, 08:27:34 PM
Quote from: NathanBrady on January 19, 2017, 07:30:22 AM
Quote from: TC on January 18, 2017, 09:55:48 PM
Not sure about locks and personally don't know much about Bristol, but given Seatruck's decision to start an operation to the port, I imagine this is being monitored by the competition.

Regarding a vessel, I imagine a vessel like Norbank or Isle of Innisfree would be best suited on a Cork / Rosslare - Bristol operation. 

I think a Fastnet Line made a big mistake when they chose M.V. Julia to launch the service. Mainly because of size, running costs and lack of freight capacity. P&O also made this mistake when operating the Portsmouth - Bilbao route. I don't think anyone could complain Pride of Bilbao wasn't a nice ship, it's just the vessel lacked freight capacity and cost a fortune to run, particularly from a fuel consumption perspective.
Bit of a difference between Norbank and Inissfree!

True, but they are from the same vintage, built by the same yard and share more or less the same stern and other characteristics. Norbank, though she has small enough passenger facilities does have more freight capacity than Isle of Innisfree.

All I'm driving at is, if any long haul service is going to be profitable and sustainable, the operator needs a "lean, clean, shipping machine".

Thanks to all for your replies on this one.  Very interesting about Swansea and also ABP wanting to move the ro/ro berth to Port Talbot.

Re whether there is enough traffic to justify such a route, I would cite the Killingholme-Hook of Holland route.  If you read the Stena Line history, the now late Pim de Lange (ran Hook of Holland for many years and died only a few years after he retired) was quoted as saying that the Stena Line Board were convined that a new route would take business from Harwich.  Pim de Lange commissioned Hull University to do an economic study and it showed that it would actually generate new business for the company.  We all know what happened next and it is now a major money maker for Stena and on its third generation of ships. 

Given that Cork and Bristol are large cities with major infrastructure, would a new route generate new business and soak up the exisiting business from south Wales to Rosslare? 

With regard to the lock gates, that's why I wondered whether a ro/ro berth could be built in the river as they did at Hull for the Europort ships. 

I promise not to raise Bristol to Cork again!

Thanks.

Matt
With all due respect, I think its a bit of a stretch to call Cork a 'large' city.  As a county and city combined, Cork has a population of just over half a million (less than a quarter of which live in the city itself). Compare that to Dublin, with just over 1.9m living in the county and 1.34m in the urban area. 

Your example of Pim de Laange is comparing apples to oranges.  The situation in the humber is/was much different to that in the south of Ireland, especially at the time the Kilingholme route was established as Roro to the continent really took off.  Bear in mind that the Yorkshire and Humber region has a population well in excess of 5m people - more than the entire population of Ireland.  There are also some seriously big distribution centres in the region, as anyone who has driven along the M62 will tell you (speaking of which, the humber is directly connected to the west coast (Liverpool and Holyhead) by the M62)!   Theres also Rotterdam to factor in - one of the busiest ports in the world, neither Cork or Bristol are anywhere close.  In short, Killingholme connects Rotterdam directly to a large population centre (and the required distribution networks to service that population and beyond) whereas Cork potentially just creates a longer journey than using the already well established alternatives that are closer to the majority of the population.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: PaddyL on January 26, 2017, 10:02:59 PM
Freight on the whole island of Ireland is gravitating towards Dublin.

Cork has a huge problem in that it has virtually no roro freight at the moment which is a vicious cycle as it puts hauliers off using any potential service as it lacks a hub effect or back-up if a sailing is cancelled.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Steven on January 27, 2017, 08:40:52 PM
Quote from: PaddyL on January 26, 2017, 10:02:59 PM
Freight on the whole island of Ireland is gravitating towards Dublin.
Another very important point. 
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Matt73 on February 06, 2017, 05:27:42 PM
Quote from: Steven on January 27, 2017, 08:40:52 PM
Quote from: PaddyL on January 26, 2017, 10:02:59 PM
Freight on the whole island of Ireland is gravitating towards Dublin.
Another very important point.

Steven and all,

Many, many thanks for your responses. 

I realise now that I was indeed comparing apples with oranges, Steven, and will not raise Bristol-Cork again!

Thanks again.

Matt
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Steven on February 09, 2017, 03:22:24 AM
Quote from: Matt73 on February 06, 2017, 05:27:42 PM
Quote from: Steven on January 27, 2017, 08:40:52 PM
Quote from: PaddyL on January 26, 2017, 10:02:59 PM
Freight on the whole island of Ireland is gravitating towards Dublin.
Another very important point.

Steven and all,

Many, many thanks for your responses. 

I realise now that I was indeed comparing apples with oranges, Steven, and will not raise Bristol-Cork again!

Thanks again.

Matt
No worries Matt.  We'd all like to see a bit more variety in the services offered I'm sure.  As I said before, perhaps a roro service would be viable to at least get things going (in the right market conditions), but as Paddy says the lack of any existing operator makes that all the harder to get going.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Niall on February 09, 2017, 04:36:52 PM
Regarding the future of Rosslare it is my view once it's properly managed with a port masterplan to bring it up to 21 century standards the port will boom. It is vital that a the France services be maintained and developed. Stena are committed long term to Rosslare so that's a good thing. I am sure Irish Ferries will want to keep a strong presence at the port as well. One thing I'd like to see are the wales services streamlined.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: corkbuoy on February 09, 2017, 06:32:39 PM
What is it with the same few on this site that like to dumb down the Port of Cork over the years?
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Steven on February 10, 2017, 04:33:46 AM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 09, 2017, 06:32:39 PM
What is it with the same few on this site that like to dumb down the Port of Cork over the years?
I'm at risk of sounding rather harsh here, but it's called being objective. 

Either the demand to sustain a viable service is there or it isn't, at the present time indications are it isn't, and more so by the day as the shift towards Dublin continues.  We'd all love to see a thriving ferry service on our doorstep, but the realities of the world mean that isn't going to happen.  Ask the people of Dun Laoghaire or Larne for example.  It wasn't so long ago that Larne was the busiest ferry port on the whole of the island of Ireland and Dun Laoghaire was Ireland's gateway to the UK!  Dun Laoghaire no longer has any ferry service, and Larne is a shadow of its former self with 2 ships operating to Cairnryan. 
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: corkbuoy on February 11, 2017, 01:07:41 PM
Quote from: Steven on February 10, 2017, 04:33:46 AM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 09, 2017, 06:32:39 PM
What is it with the same few on this site that like to dumb down the Port of Cork over the years?
I'm at risk of sounding rather harsh here, but it's called being objective. 

Either the demand to sustain a viable service is there or it isn't, at the present time indications are it isn't, and more so by the day as the shift towards Dublin continues.  We'd all love to see a thriving ferry service on our doorstep, but the realities of the world mean that isn't going to happen.  Ask the people of Dun Laoghaire or Larne for example.  It wasn't so long ago that Larne was the busiest ferry port on the whole of the island of Ireland and Dun Laoghaire was Ireland's gateway to the UK!  Dun Laoghaire no longer has any ferry service, and Larne is a shadow of its former self with 2 ships operating to Cairnryan.

In all fairness Steven, that reads like objective to bias to me.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Kieran on February 11, 2017, 08:27:50 PM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 09, 2017, 06:32:39 PM
What is it with the same few on this site that like to dumb down the Port of Cork over the years?

Dumbing down is a bit harsh, and as a Cork I won't have it!

The site was one of the places that heavily supported Bring back the Swansea Cork Ferry (and Fastent Line). The reality is there are various disadvantages to Cork - UK routes that people have highlighted.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: corkbuoy on February 11, 2017, 10:18:51 PM
Quote from: Kieran on February 11, 2017, 08:27:50 PM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 09, 2017, 06:32:39 PM
What is it with the same few on this site that like to dumb down the Port of Cork over the years?

Dumbing down is a bit harsh, and as a Cork I won't have it!

The site was one of the places that heavily supported Bring back the Swansea Cork Ferry (and Fastent Line). The reality is there are various disadvantages to Cork - UK routes that people have highlighted.

I'm not referring to this sites support for past cork-uk ferry lines, it's about since that route has ceased.

Constant negativity regarding the viability of a renewed ferry service.

This idea of "various disadvantages to Cork-UK" idea is over-blown by some on here.

I should go over old ground here again about complaints of state aid to the eu & of predatory pricing by other operators but this seems to be a side-story or non-story in most relevant discussions here.

Who are these experts that give their opinions on here?

I too am a Corkonian, living & working in Cork and will always stand up to anyone who thinks it's ok to denigrate our achievements, qualities & ambitions.



Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Niall on February 11, 2017, 10:36:03 PM
A major problem with Swansea was with tidal restrictions. Transport links to Ringaskiddy are pretty limited also.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: corkbuoy on February 11, 2017, 10:43:43 PM
Quote from: Niall on February 11, 2017, 10:36:03 PM
A major problem with Swansea was with tidal restrictions. Transport links to Ringaskiddy are pretty limited also.

Another post talking nonsense about Ringaskiddy.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Kieran on February 12, 2017, 02:29:02 PM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 11, 2017, 10:43:43 PM
Quote from: Niall on February 11, 2017, 10:36:03 PM
A major problem with Swansea was with tidal restrictions. Transport links to Ringaskiddy are pretty limited also.

Another post talking nonsense about Ringaskiddy.

True, road access to Ringa is as good as (if not better) than Rosslare. They would want to be considering the amount of industry in that part of the harbour.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Steven on February 13, 2017, 02:04:43 PM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 11, 2017, 01:07:41 PM
Quote from: Steven on February 10, 2017, 04:33:46 AM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 09, 2017, 06:32:39 PM
What is it with the same few on this site that like to dumb down the Port of Cork over the years?
I'm at risk of sounding rather harsh here, but it's called being objective. 

Either the demand to sustain a viable service is there or it isn't, at the present time indications are it isn't, and more so by the day as the shift towards Dublin continues.  We'd all love to see a thriving ferry service on our doorstep, but the realities of the world mean that isn't going to happen.  Ask the people of Dun Laoghaire or Larne for example.  It wasn't so long ago that Larne was the busiest ferry port on the whole of the island of Ireland and Dun Laoghaire was Ireland's gateway to the UK!  Dun Laoghaire no longer has any ferry service, and Larne is a shadow of its former self with 2 ships operating to Cairnryan.

In all fairness Steven, that reads like objective to bias to me.
So anyone who doesn't think Cork is the greatest place ever is biased then?  If the market was right and the facilities in place then I'm sure operators would have been queuing up.  They weren't and now uncertainty in the industry on a UK-Ireland level is much increased.  Don't get me wrong, as someone already said (Paddy?), freight will still need to move between the UK and Ireland, but will the growth needed to keep a new service viable be there?  Rosslare isn't exactly rammed year round as things stand.  There are many factors against a service from Cork to the UK as has already been discussed (and there are possibly others), not least distance. 

Of course the distance/crossing time penalty can be overcome with faster vessels, but that means much higher running costs.  If you read what I have written without your "Cork is the greatest place on earth" hat on, you will see that I have suggested perhaps a roro freight service could be an option.  This is exactly what was done with Belfast - Liverpool to build up steady all year round trade, before ropax vessels were acquired to enable passengers to be carried (a bonus income).  That was a service running to the largest population centre in "the north" to one of the most populous regions in the UK.   Personally I see Cork as the best hope for a service to Spain due to its location - Corks weakness as a port to the UK is a strength with regard to a potential Spanish service IMO.

Until the UK and EU sort out their current tiff I doubt anyone is going to be willing to risk a new service, especially if they need to get funding from the banks in order to do so (I.e they aren't part of a large global Swedish empire with its own significant resources and no shareholders to answer to).  How do you put forward a business case when nobody knows what the trading relationship between Ireland, the UK, and the wider EU is going to look like in even 2 years time?!?


As for predatory pricing etc being responsible for Swansea - Cork not still running (and I know emotions run high on this issue, and don't intend to upset anyone), I think that though a factor, that's a rather simplistic view to take.  Firstly, should that not have been taken into account in the original business plan?  It would be rather naive to expect the other operators to not react to a threat.  If there was enough trade there to go around and enough businesses and people were crying out for a direct link from Swansea then why would it be an issue in any case?  Likewise if there isn't enough trade to go around then why shouldn't the current operators defend their businesses (and their employees jobs)?  It happens in every other industry.  Personally I believe Julia was the wrong vessel, never a good start to a service.  Swansea probably wasn't the best port either due to its restrictions.  Hopefully if another startup operator does come along, those lessons (and others) will have been learned.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: corkbuoy on February 13, 2017, 07:30:58 PM
Quote from: Steven on February 13, 2017, 02:04:43 PM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 11, 2017, 01:07:41 PM
Quote from: Steven on February 10, 2017, 04:33:46 AM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 09, 2017, 06:32:39 PM
What is it with the same few on this site that like to dumb down the Port of Cork over the years?
I'm at risk of sounding rather harsh here, but it's called being objective. 

Either the demand to sustain a viable service is there or it isn't, at the present time indications are it isn't, and more so by the day as the shift towards Dublin continues.  We'd all love to see a thriving ferry service on our doorstep, but the realities of the world mean that isn't going to happen.  Ask the people of Dun Laoghaire or Larne for example.  It wasn't so long ago that Larne was the busiest ferry port on the whole of the island of Ireland and Dun Laoghaire was Ireland's gateway to the UK!  Dun Laoghaire no longer has any ferry service, and Larne is a shadow of its former self with 2 ships operating to Cairnryan.

In all fairness Steven, that reads like objective to bias to me.
So anyone who doesn't think Cork is the greatest place ever is biased then?  If the market was right and the facilities in place then I'm sure operators would have been queuing up.  They weren't and now uncertainty in the industry on a UK-Ireland level is much increased.  Don't get me wrong, as someone already said (Paddy?), freight will still need to move between the UK and Ireland, but will the growth needed to keep a new service viable be there?  Rosslare isn't exactly rammed year round as things stand.  There are many factors against a service from Cork to the UK as has already been discussed (and there are possibly others), not least distance. 

Of course the distance/crossing time penalty can be overcome with faster vessels, but that means much higher running costs.  If you read what I have written without your "Cork is the greatest place on earth" hat on, you will see that I have suggested perhaps a roro freight service could be an option.  This is exactly what was done with Belfast - Liverpool to build up steady all year round trade, before ropax vessels were acquired to enable passengers to be carried (a bonus income).  That was a service running to the largest population centre in "the north" to one of the most populous regions in the UK.   Personally I see Cork as the best hope for a service to Spain due to its location - Corks weakness as a port to the UK is a strength with regard to a potential Spanish service IMO.

Until the UK and EU sort out their current tiff I doubt anyone is going to be willing to risk a new service, especially if they need to get funding from the banks in order to do so (I.e they aren't part of a large global Swedish empire with its own significant resources and no shareholders to answer to).  How do you put forward a business case when nobody knows what the trading relationship between Ireland, the UK, and the wider EU is going to look like in even 2 years time?!?


As for predatory pricing etc being responsible for Swansea - Cork not still running (and I know emotions run high on this issue, and don't intend to upset anyone), I think that though a factor, that's a rather simplistic view to take.  Firstly, should that not have been taken into account in the original business plan?  It would be rather naive to expect the other operators to not react to a threat.  If there was enough trade there to go around and enough businesses and people were crying out for a direct link from Swansea then why would it be an issue in any case?  Likewise if there isn't enough trade to go around then why shouldn't the current operators defend their businesses (and their employees jobs)?  It happens in every other industry.  Personally I believe Julia was the wrong vessel, never a good start to a service.  Swansea probably wasn't the best port either due to its restrictions.  Hopefully if another startup operator does come along, those lessons (and others) will have been learned.

It's great to have such an expert on this site; In time, I must remember to tell the new Cork-UK ferry operator run their plans by you first, just to make sure they're watertight and all that.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Kieran on February 13, 2017, 08:31:53 PM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 13, 2017, 07:30:58 PM
It's great to have such an expert on this site; In time, I must remember to tell the new Cork-UK ferry operator run their plans by you first, just to make sure they're watertight and all that.

Hang on, i'm all for debate, which this has been. That response however, is unfair.

The fact is Cork - UK didn't work for Fastnet (for various reasons, already covered). Steven has suggested a way to redevelop the route. I'm not so sure you grasp the investment and cost of actually doing it (assuming you could find a ship in the first place).

If you just want to post snarky replies, I'll lock the thread.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: corkbuoy on February 13, 2017, 09:46:47 PM
Quote from: Kieran on February 13, 2017, 08:31:53 PM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 13, 2017, 07:30:58 PM
It's great to have such an expert on this site; In time, I must remember to tell the new Cork-UK ferry operator run their plans by you first, just to make sure they're watertight and all that.

Hang on, i'm all for debate, which this has been. That response however, is unfair.

The fact is Cork - UK didn't work for Fastnet (for various reasons, already covered). Steven has suggested a way to redevelop the route. I'm not so sure you grasp the investment and cost of actually doing it (assuming you could find a ship in the first place).

If you just want to post snarky replies, I'll lock the thread.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander & what gives you the insight as to whether I grasp the economics of this nature or not?

Please outline?

I'm all for discussion, on a peer to peer basis, not to be spoken down to by the same 2 or 3 posters here who seem to know it all.

Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: PaddyL on February 14, 2017, 11:13:48 AM
As I think I said before Fastnet's problem (passenger pricing wise at least) was that the market didn't properly value the night onboard which meant that the cheaper prices elsewhere created a perception that Swansea - Cork was overpriced.  In reality it was probably similar value for money all things factored in but the public didn't see it that way and 6 years on I find it hard to see how this conundrum will be any easier.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Kieran on February 14, 2017, 03:27:49 PM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 13, 2017, 09:46:47 PM
I'm all for discussion, on a peer to peer basis, not to be spoken down to by the same 2 or 3 posters here who seem to know it all.

Then back up what your saying, don't argue (and say "not true"), debate and discuss.

Quote from: PaddyL on February 14, 2017, 11:13:48 AM
As I think I said before Fastnet's problem (passenger pricing wise at least) was that the market didn't properly value the night onboard which meant that the cheaper prices elsewhere created a perception that Swansea - Cork was overpriced.  In reality it was probably similar value for money all things factored in but the public didn't see it that way and 6 years on I find it hard to see how this conundrum will be any easier.

True, I think from a passanger point of view, it looked more expensive than it was. As I said, the crossing length skews everything here.

Fastnet also focused heavily on passanger traffic (wright or wrong, that's another debate), but the Julia lacked the freight space to make the route work year round...but hey, hindsight is a great thing!
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: corkbuoy on February 14, 2017, 05:26:21 PM
Quote from: Kieran on February 14, 2017, 03:27:49 PM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 13, 2017, 09:46:47 PM
I'm all for discussion, on a peer to peer basis, not to be spoken down to by the same 2 or 3 posters here who seem to know it all.

Then back up what your saying, don't argue (and say "not true"), debate and discuss.

Quote from: PaddyL on February 14, 2017, 11:13:48 AM
As I think I said before Fastnet's problem (passenger pricing wise at least) was that the market didn't properly value the night onboard which meant that the cheaper prices elsewhere created a perception that Swansea - Cork was overpriced.  In reality it was probably similar value for money all things factored in but the public didn't see it that way and 6 years on I find it hard to see how this conundrum will be any easier.

True, I think from a passanger point of view, it looked more expensive than it was. As I said, the crossing length skews everything here.

Fastnet also focused heavily on passanger traffic (wright or wrong, that's another debate), but the Julia lacked the freight space to make the route work year round...but hey, hindsight is a great thing!

Please delete my profile/account, I've had enough of the groupthink from ye lot.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Niall on February 14, 2017, 06:04:03 PM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 14, 2017, 05:26:21 PM
Quote from: Kieran on February 14, 2017, 03:27:49 PM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 13, 2017, 09:46:47 PM
I'm all for discussion, on a peer to peer basis, not to be spoken down to by the same 2 or 3 posters here who seem to know it all.

Then back up what your saying, don't argue (and say "not true"), debate and discuss.

Quote from: PaddyL on February 14, 2017, 11:13:48 AM
As I think I said before Fastnet's problem (passenger pricing wise at least) was that the market didn't properly value the night onboard which meant that the cheaper prices elsewhere created a perception that Swansea - Cork was overpriced.  In reality it was probably similar value for money all things factored in but the public didn't see it that way and 6 years on I find it hard to see how this conundrum will be any easier.

True, I think from a passanger point of view, it looked more expensive than it was. As I said, the crossing length skews everything here.

Fastnet also focused heavily on passanger traffic (wright or wrong, that's another debate), but the Julia lacked the freight space to make the route work year round...but hey, hindsight is a great thing!

Please delete my profile/account, I've had enough of the groupthink from ye lot.

Steven has vast experience working in the ferry industry and is very familiar with the operations and economics of ferry operations out of Ireland.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Steven on February 14, 2017, 09:16:19 PM
Quote from: Kieran on February 14, 2017, 03:27:49 PM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 13, 2017, 09:46:47 PM
I'm all for discussion, on a peer to peer basis, not to be spoken down to by the same 2 or 3 posters here who seem to know it all.

Then back up what your saying, don't argue (and say "not true"), debate and discuss.

Quote from: PaddyL on February 14, 2017, 11:13:48 AM
As I think I said before Fastnet's problem (passenger pricing wise at least) was that the market didn't properly value the night onboard which meant that the cheaper prices elsewhere created a perception that Swansea - Cork was overpriced.  In reality it was probably similar value for money all things factored in but the public didn't see it that way and 6 years on I find it hard to see how this conundrum will be any easier.

True, I think from a passanger point of view, it looked more expensive than it was. As I said, the crossing length skews everything here.

Fastnet also focused heavily on passanger traffic (wright or wrong, that's another debate), but the Julia lacked the freight space to make the route work year round...but hey, hindsight is a great thing!
Exactly, this is why I thought Julia was the wrong vessel.  Thats before even factoring in the running and maintenance costs of such a vessel as well. Passengers are great in that they (hopefully) spend money onboard, but there are a lot of costs involved in carrying 'self-loading cargo' as well.  Particularly when the service runs year round but the passenger demand is heavily concentrated across a few months but there is little to no freight travelling to soak up some of the operational costs.  In such a scenario it is likely that passenger ticket prices will need to be higher in order to cover the losses during the quieter months.  Which brings us nicely back to whether Stena and Irish Ferries would be best merging their operation (again).  It could be said there is a strong argument that one ship (Inishmore for example) would be ample in all but the busiest periods of the year.


Quote from: corkbuoy on February 14, 2017, 05:26:21 PM
Please delete my profile/account, I've had enough of the groupthink from ye lot.

A shame.  Maybe he will be back once he has calmed down a bit.

Quote from: Niall on February 14, 2017, 06:04:03 PM
Steven has vast experience working in the ferry industry and is very familiar with the operations and economics of ferry operations out of Ireland.

Thank you for the kind words, but they rather flatter me. Whilst I have a familiarity with some of the economics and operations (and knowledge of how business decisions are made), I don't have vast experience of working IN the ferry industry.



Anyway, please don't let the episode above deter anyone from continuing to discuss the Southern Corridor.  After all, this is one of the few ferry forums left that has some measure of decent debate and discussion left!
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Kieran on February 14, 2017, 09:50:15 PM
Quote from: Steven on February 14, 2017, 09:16:19 PM
Which brings us nicely back to whether Stena and Irish Ferries would be best merging their operation (again).  It could be said there is a strong argument that one ship (Inishmore for example) would be ample in all but the busiest periods of the year.
Well, lets say Inishmore provides a one ship service year round as part of a joint venture, I'm sure Stena could find something to provide extra capacity for the summer months (and use it for refit cover in the winter). Wait, why didn't I think of that sooner?!?

Quote from: Steven on February 14, 2017, 09:16:19 PM
Quote from: corkbuoy on February 14, 2017, 05:26:21 PM
Please delete my profile/account, I've had enough of the groupthink from ye lot.

A shame.  Maybe he will be back once he has calmed down a bit.
As I said, I have no problem with people debating anything (within reason!) on here, but I needs to be explained and backed up with facts. I really don't want to have to go around locking threads and banning members.

Quote from: Steven on February 14, 2017, 09:16:19 PM
Quote from: Niall on February 14, 2017, 06:04:03 PM
Steven has vast experience working in the ferry industry and is very familiar with the operations and economics of ferry operations out of Ireland.

Thank you for the kind words, but they rather flatter me. Whilst I have a familiarity with some of the economics and operations (and knowledge of how business decisions are made), I don't have vast experience of working IN the ferry industry.

Niall, you win a high five! There are a fair few people on here (aswell as Steven) that know far more about the industry than I, and a few that work in it. I don't think people need to disclose what they do, it's reasonably obvious from reading replies when people know what they are talking about.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Niall on February 15, 2017, 12:01:24 PM
Quote from: Kieran on February 14, 2017, 09:50:15 PM
Quote from: Steven on February 14, 2017, 09:16:19 PM
Which brings us nicely back to whether Stena and Irish Ferries would be best merging their operation (again).  It could be said there is a strong argument that one ship (Inishmore for example) would be ample in all but the busiest periods of the year.
Well, lets say Inishmore provides a one ship service year round as part of a joint venture, I'm sure Stena could find something to provide extra capacity for the summer months (and use it for refit cover in the winter). Wait, why didn't I think of that sooner?!?

First of all would IF and Stena be prepared to enter into such an agreement. Also Rosslare and Fishguard need to be upgraded. Fishguard would require a 2 tier linkspan installed. Also new foot passenger gangways would need to be installed at both ports. Then there are the peak periods when a second ship would be required. Are we looking at a RoRo vessel or a RoPax ship. Another thing to bare in mind is the management of Rosslare harbour.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Steven on February 15, 2017, 02:33:46 PM
Quote from: Niall on February 15, 2017, 12:01:24 PM
Quote from: Kieran on February 14, 2017, 09:50:15 PM
Quote from: Steven on February 14, 2017, 09:16:19 PM
Which brings us nicely back to whether Stena and Irish Ferries would be best merging their operation (again).  It could be said there is a strong argument that one ship (Inishmore for example) would be ample in all but the busiest periods of the year.
Well, lets say Inishmore provides a one ship service year round as part of a joint venture, I'm sure Stena could find something to provide extra capacity for the summer months (and use it for refit cover in the winter). Wait, why didn't I think of that sooner?!?

First of all would IF and Stena be prepared to enter into such an agreement. Also Rosslare and Fishguard need to be upgraded. Fishguard would require a 2 tier linkspan installed. Also new foot passenger gangways would need to be installed at both ports. Then there are the peak periods when a second ship would be required. Are we looking at a RoRo vessel or a RoPax ship. Another thing to bare in mind is the management of Rosslare harbour.
Such a service probably wouldn't use 2 separate ports at the Welsh end, though neither port is perfect.  I'd imagine a second vessel would need to be a RoPax as the peak demand is on the passenger side (Ireland v Wales rugby internationals spring to mind), though in a few years time will that demand still be there with more and more people using the airlines?  Foot passenger gangways are not a necessity, and as for two tier loading it would depend on the vessel involved and the turnaround times.  Of course, this is all speculation and it would need both companies to be willing to make such an arrangement work (or for one agree to step aside - perhaps in exchange for some form of compensation).
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Niall on February 15, 2017, 03:01:44 PM
Quote from: Steven on February 15, 2017, 02:33:46 PM
Quote from: Niall on February 15, 2017, 12:01:24 PM
Quote from: Kieran on February 14, 2017, 09:50:15 PM
Quote from: Steven on February 14, 2017, 09:16:19 PM
Which brings us nicely back to whether Stena and Irish Ferries would be best merging their operation (again).  It could be said there is a strong argument that one ship (Inishmore for example) would be ample in all but the busiest periods of the year.
Well, lets say Inishmore provides a one ship service year round as part of a joint venture, I'm sure Stena could find something to provide extra capacity for the summer months (and use it for refit cover in the winter). Wait, why didn't I think of that sooner?!?

First of all would IF and Stena be prepared to enter into such an agreement. Also Rosslare and Fishguard need to be upgraded. Fishguard would require a 2 tier linkspan installed. Also new foot passenger gangways would need to be installed at both ports. Then there are the peak periods when a second ship would be required. Are we looking at a RoRo vessel or a RoPax ship. Another thing to bare in mind is the management of Rosslare harbour.
Such a service probably wouldn't use 2 separate ports at the Welsh end, though neither port is perfect.  I'd imagine a second vessel would need to be a RoPax as the peak demand is on the passenger side (Ireland v Wales rugby internationals spring to mind), though in a few years time will that demand still be there with more and more people using the airlines?  Foot passenger gangways are not a necessity, and as for two tier loading it would depend on the vessel involved and the turnaround times.  Of course, this is all speculation and it would need both companies to be willing to make such an arrangement work (or for one agree to step aside - perhaps in exchange for some form of compensation).

I suppose logic would success that Stena would step away from Fishguard and allow IF to operate the route with the Inishmore. My guess is nothing will happen for a few years until around 2025 when Stena Europe is expected to finish her career with Stena.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Steven on February 15, 2017, 05:19:34 PM
Much would depend on who was prepared to compromise and what the plans are elsewhere.  In any case, I wouldn't be surprised to see Europe replaced in 2020 when the E-Flexer's are in service (if all goes to plan).  Life extension or not, ships of her age are not cheap to keep in service.  Theres bound to be some sort of fleet reshuffle, particularly with Lagan and Mersey going spare.  SSF VII/VIII will also be released, and though they are only on charter Stena have spent a heck of a lot of money on them.  Thats before we consider that Tallink could have trouble selling on 2 ageing (they'll be about 20 years old by that stage) fuel-hungry day-ferries of that size  - who knows what sort of deal could be done and what they could in turn free up?  I doubt we will see them at Rosslare themselves though.  Then theres the Welsh ports themselves - neither of them is ideal, though establishing any new facility wont be cheap either.  Theres also the bigger picture, particularly the impact of Brexit, to consider.  If more trade goes direct to France rather than through the UK then it follows that Southern Corridor demand may reduce.  What makes sense at present may not in just a few years time!

Edit:  I unkindly added 10 years on to the age of the superfasts.  Must type slower.....
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Niall on February 15, 2017, 09:36:32 PM
Regarding brexit how will that impact on the central corridor routes?
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Steven on February 16, 2017, 10:09:43 PM
Quote from: Niall on February 15, 2017, 09:36:32 PM
Regarding brexit how will that impact on the central corridor routes?
Nobody knows, is the short answer.  A lot depends on what brexit looks like.  We can however look at some hypothetical situations. (I'll try to wear my neutral hat :) )

At present the UK relies a lot on agriculture in particular from Ireland (North and South) as well as other imports.  A significant (and increasing) amount of trade from the North also moves through the central corridor.  Slap on tariffs (and customs checks, etc) and it no longer makes sense for that trade in particular to move through Dublin over say the routes straight from Warrenpoint and Belfast to England.  Then theres traffic from Ireland bound for the continent - if it faces checks and duties leaving Ireland and again when leaving the UK, Ireland to France could see a lot of growth.  It is not unusual for traffic from NI to pass through Dublin and the UK mainland bound for France either - that could potentially get very expensive!!!  (I have some numbers later on in this rather lengthy post)

If, however, the trading and customs relationship between the UK and Ireland remains more or less the same there probably wont be much effect.  It is also worth taking into account that people still need to eat, and the UK can only supply so much of its own food at present, so in all likelihood will still rely on importing food (which will be more expensive to buy so there would likely be some effect on volumes).   

Everything depends on what the politicians negotiate and what concessions both "sides" are willing to give.  Of the 28 EU countries, the UK and Ireland probably have potentially the most to lose from Brexit IMO.

Anyway, here some numbers from a quick google search (and so I am relying on the analysis of the website - I'm no economist!).

Some 40% of all food exports from Ireland go to the UK.  Of the 60% of Irish exports that go to the EU, over a quarter (16% of total Irish exports) goes to the UK.  For comparison 5% of all exports go to France, the only other direct passenger ferry destination (and a significantly longer route in terms of time taken to the other biggest EU destinations listed below than passing through the UK, as would direct services to say Zeebrugge).  Surprisingly to me, it seems Belgium is the second largest EU export destination for Irish goods (14% of all exports), followed by Germany (7% of all exports).  The US is the largest export destination for Irish goods, despite Ireland being bound by the same EU rules that brexiters claim are holding the UK's own exports to the US back [my neutral hat slipped off for a second  ::)]! (stats taken from http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ireland/exports).  On the flip-side, the same website says some 34% of all imports to Ireland come from the UK http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ireland/imports), so it is very much a two-way trading relationship which both countries stand to lose a lot from. 

In summary, Brexit may have little or no impact on the central corridor routes.  Or it could have a significant impact (and not just on the central corridor either).  Sorry for the long post!
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Davy Jones on February 16, 2017, 10:31:53 PM
.......and of course, trading history between the UK and Ireland goes back way before the European Union was ever thought of. Yes there may be a few minor changes but I'm sure the logistics industry will adapt accordingly.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Steven on February 17, 2017, 12:30:36 AM
Quote from: Davy Jones on February 16, 2017, 10:31:53 PM
.......and of course, trading history between the UK and Ireland goes back way before the European Union was ever thought of. Yes there may be a few minor changes but I'm sure the logistics industry will adapt accordingly.
True, but the question is that as an EU member will Ireland be ALLOWED to trade with and through the UK without change should significant change happen in the UK's trading relationship with the EU?  Bare in mind the agreements that pre-date EU membership are now replaced legislation at EU level.  Even with the UK (a natural ally in many things when it comes to EU votes I might add) gone, Ireland are still just one of 27 EU members and totally isolated as an island with no land border to any EU state.  France isn't exactly ideal so far as being the nearest EU (or EFTA, EEA, etc) trading partner is concerned! 

Again, until whatever deal is done is done, we can only speak hypothetically.  But it is far from a black and white issue and one which we all just have to hope is far up the negotiating agenda of both the UK and the EU.
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: PaddyL on February 17, 2017, 05:09:22 PM
Quote from: Davy Jones on February 16, 2017, 10:31:53 PM
.......and of course, trading history between the UK and Ireland goes back way before the European Union was ever thought of. Yes there may be a few minor changes but I'm sure the logistics industry will adapt accordingly.

Exactly - traffic will still need to move!

Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Steven on February 18, 2017, 04:36:16 AM
Quote from: PaddyL on February 17, 2017, 05:09:22 PM
Quote from: Davy Jones on February 16, 2017, 10:31:53 PM
.......and of course, trading history between the UK and Ireland goes back way before the European Union was ever thought of. Yes there may be a few minor changes but I'm sure the logistics industry will adapt accordingly.

Exactly - traffic will still need to move!
Of course.  Unless the next plan is to starve the people of the UK ;)
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: NathanBrady on February 18, 2017, 02:26:12 PM
Might Irish ferries do a Dublin to France boat all week with epsilon when the new boat comes
Title: Re: is it time for stena/irish ferries to operate a single service ex rosslare
Post by: Steven on March 08, 2017, 07:27:53 PM
Quote from: NathanBrady on February 18, 2017, 02:26:12 PM
Might Irish ferries do a Dublin to France boat all week with epsilon when the new boat comes
Who knows?  At least they'll have that option (and perhaps the option to retain Epsilon on charter or by purchase).